[jostmey]

Hacker news has seen a lot of posts on this subject. The usual advice is to work in industry, where people are apparently treated like human beings. I am sure this is true, but the advice isn't helpful to me.

Society benefits from scientific research. Dismiss its wage problems at your own peril. Sadly, a lot of research is outsourced to universities because labor is cheap. Why pay someone loads of money when you can contract with a university lab? It might be good in the short term, but the talent is leaving research in search of greener pastures.

[arcanus]

> Dismiss its wage problems at your own peril.

It's far worse than this. In my field, even in industry I have had far more lucrative offers from quantitative hedge funds than any industrial research labor. Let alone staying in academia, where it literally starts to become a factor of four (or more) difference in salary between a postdoc and finance.

The only reason I did not bite is because I am fortunate enough to have no college debt even after undergrad and phd. Most are not in a position to be so picky.

[jostmey]

Don't count on your research job in industry remaining stable if it can be outsourced to a university lab. The ceiling on your pay is that of a postdoc's plus university overhead.

[arcanus]

> if it can be outsourced to a university lab

Thankfully, my work is sufficiently specialized and my background is strong enough I am not easily replaced. However, like many on HN I'm not representative of the general population and am certainly in a fortunate position. I am on a 'tenure track' in an organization where proprietary work and intellectual property I develop is legitimately valued.

But broadly, I agree. And I've seen some pretty horrific results along the lines you alluded occur to several of my colleagues.

[Thriptic]

> We cannot dismiss these problems in science if we want research to continue.

The sad reality is that right now, those concerns can be dismissed. There is a huge supply of good researchers (especially foreign researchers) who are willing to work under poor conditions just to get a shot. Until there is more money in the system / more positions / fewer people in academic science, you are going to see PIs with unreasonable expectations because they know they can get away with it.

[tnecniv]

> PIs with unreasonable expectations because they know they can get away with it.

Not only that, but they know the next lab down the road is working just as many long, hard hours.

[IndianAstronaut]

>talent is leaving research in search of greener pastures.

I left my research position studying hereditary influences on cancer development to work in auto finance. Lots of people in my position doing the same. The talent pool is shrinking.

[projektir]

The peril is already there. It's not created by those who leave. It's created by those who setup the conditions in such a way that all the people with self-respect leave. And this is how it should be: people should absolutely NOT feed a bad system. If all the best people leave, it sends a very clear signal. A lot of abuse and exploitation specifically happens because the best people are often too caring and good natured to leave.

If this is what we setup, we absolutely deserve to lose scientific progress over it. Then, perhaps we'll learn, figure it out, and set it up right. Expecting people to sacrifice themselves for the greater good while they're being exploited is both foolish and immoral.