[threeseed]

Not sure why this is being posted on HN but anyway.

Iran like all countries have certain cultural norms. I am not allowed to chew gum in Singapore. I am not allowed to drink alcohol publicly in places like Dubai. I am not allowed to smoke outside in the city in parts of Australia. I am not allowed to wear full body swimsuits in parts of France. Welcome to the world.

[tmptmp]

>>Iran like all countries have certain cultural norms. I am not allowed to chew gum in Singapore. I am not allowed to drink alcohol publicly in places like Dubai. I am not allowed to smoke outside in the city in parts of Australia. I am not allowed to wear full body swimsuits in parts of France. Welcome to the world.

Need to change slightly. I, whether a man or a woman, am not allowed to chew gum in Singapore. I, whether a man or a woman, am not allowed to drink alcohol publicly in places like Dubai. I, whether a man or a woman, am not allowed to smoke outside in the city in parts of Australia. I, whether a man or a woman, am not allowed to wear full body swimsuits in parts of France. Welcome to the world.

But I, only because am a woman, and because the barbaric Islamic sharia law treats women as second class citizens, have to wear hijab/burqa in Iran (or other Islmaic country). Welcome to Islam.

edit: typo

[toomanybeersies]

Because I am a man, I am allowed to be topless outside in NYC. I wouldn't if I was a woman.

The hijab worn in Iran is a lot less restrictive than the hijab worn in a lost of other Muslim countries. I would join in the outrage if the chess players were forced to wear a niqab, but requiring people to wear a loose headscarf is hardly oppression of the worst degree.

[x1798DE]

Not a particularly good example, women can be topless in NYC: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/24/434315957/...

[gonvaled]

Which is exactly why as many women as men are going topless in NYC, right?

I could be misguided and maybe women have less tendency of going topless. Do you have any studies at hand?

[x1798DE]

No one said it's popular, just that it's not illegal.

[gonvaled]

And I am saying that because it is legal it does not mean it is accepted. You don't have the weight of the state, but the weight of society.

[toomanybeersies]

My mistake. I had vague memories that it was illegal in NYC.

Substitute NYC for a city in the USA where it's illegal for women to go topless.

[philoye]

> Because I am a man, I am allowed to be topless outside in NYC. I wouldn't if I was a woman.

Actually, it is legal for women to be topless in New York: https://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I92_0160.htm

[arcanus]

> hardly oppression of the worst degree.

The symbolism is what is important. A government that tells you what to dress will certainly not stop with benign restrictions.

[toomanybeersies]

But all governments tell you how to dress in some form or another (or there's strongly ingrained beliefs that are de facto law), and it's usually different for men and women.

The question then, is where do we draw the line?

[candiodari]

How about the rule that if you change religion, you get executed ? That one applies in Iran, doesn't it ? What does that say about muslim tolerance - in Iran and elsewhere ?

[crazygringo]

Slavery is a cultural norm. Racism a cultural norm. Sexism a cultural norm.

Just because something's a cultural norm doesn't mean you should accept it.

Social progress is made by fighting against cultural norms that treat groups of people as second-class citizens.

[Tomte]

Gun ownership is a social norm. Free Speech in the (extreme) American sense is a social norm.

Both are widely rejected by countries, including many in Western civilization.

Still a fan of rejecting social norms that are objectionable to many of us? Or only those America doesn't hold dear?

[toomanybeersies]

> Gun ownership is a social norm

I am a non-American who owns a couple of firearms. I use them for hunting. There is no intrinsic wrong to firearms. They're a tool. Just like any other tool, they can be used for good or for bad.

[Tomte]

Where do you think are you disagreeing with me?

I have stated that a society allowing private citizens to bear arms is a social norm.

You're talking about the usefulness of guns. Totally no relation.

[bbarn]

The "Why is this on HN" post always seems to come with a judgmental comment.

It's on HN because hackers, as a whole, react to what they perceive to be injustice, or discrimination.

Hiding behind a nation's "norms" doesn't make it OK to tell foreign visiting women they need to hide themselves. Personally I don't think anywhere in the world a woman should be forced to do this, and it's all fine and good to try to find analogies like wearing shirts in public, but this is a step too far.

This isn't a nation saying their women have the right to do something, this is a nation saying all women should do this regardless of their beliefs, despite the majority of the world disagreeing with it.