[emp_zealoth]

The point is to ruin Russia to the point they become North Korea and cannot afford the upkeep for it's military. Regular people? Boo-fucking-hoo. Maybe if they get off their asses and stop the Putin's insanity...but who are we kidding? People there dream of good old soviet imperium

[readhn]

Ruining russian military? You mean rusting tanks from the 60's or expired rockets from cold war era? The military can not compete with the west anymore.

People there stopped dreaming in the 90's when the ugly side of "new Russia" showed its face. As i said election process is rigged, many folks there want change. please, do not believe 75%+ public support ratings spewed out by state propaganda machines. they are simply untrue.

Lots of folks are ashamed of conflict with Ukraine but unfortunately there is no political and social platform that allows to do anything about this. Anything thats against the state agenda gets nipped in the bud.

[emp_zealoth]

I've actually been to Russia, through Petersburg, all the way to Solovetsky island, spent around a month there. I'd say that sure, people are nice on a personal level, but some topics were off limits because it would end badly. While i know that the russian military has issues with equipment that is literally falling apart, let's not kid ourselves the west doesn't have similar issues. ICBM's don't need any contemporary electronics to be perfectly deadly. And let's not forget that Russia right now is actively developing modern weapon systems perfectly capable of taking on anything the west has to offer, some of them are slated to be markedly better (For e.g. PAK FA, if they actually manage to produce it in meaningful numbers, makes the F-coat-hanger-abortion-35 completely irrelevant) And air power is disproportionally effective in conventional war. So, my point is - if Russia literally goes bankrupt, it can no longer afford precision tools, asic chips, expertise, modern milling machines, exotic materials, etc. This is not cold war, where you could literally hand solder computers. (Yes, I know no one put's 22nm chips in 5th gen planes, but the point still stands)

[readhn]

If you understand who runs the country and how they operate then you will understand that they do not desire any serious conflicts with the west. West - is where they retire, keep their money and often families. They are not about to shoot themselves in the foot.

[nazgob]

PAK FA is designed to compete with F-22 not F-35. F-35 is single engine, different machine.

[emp_zealoth]

There are only 185 F-22's and the lines are dismantled. If you are going to produce only F35's at a ratio almost 10:1 compared to F22... Then doesn't the fact that PAK FA is supposed to go agains vastly superior (to F35 for sure) F22 make you agree with me logically?

[woodandsteel]

>Ruining russian military? You mean rusting tanks from the 60's or expired rockets from cold war era? The military can not compete with the west anymore.

It's still strong enough to grab Crimea, support the rebels in Eastern Ukraine, and intervene very effectively to rescue the regime in Syria. I for one would be very glad if its military finally collapsed.

On a deeper level, the Russian people have never figured out how to organize themselves into a modern, democratic nation, and they love authoritarian rulers like Putin. I mean, look what happened when they had some freedom under Yeltsin, they blew it completely.

[readhn]

Strong enough to grab Crimea from Ukraine? Its like stealing candy from a kid. Ukraine's military is in even worse shape. Syria is not exactly super power either.

The military machine over there can spit out "super weapon in development" stories all day - the truth is, nothing meaningful or threatening is happening, the funds for any meaningful development work are being stolen by the higher ups and channeled to the western banks through offshores (see "panama papers"). How do you think they buy mega yachts and houses in London, Spain, Greece?

Under Yeltsin there was no freedom (in fact there was never any freedom in Russia) - there was complete lawlessness. USSR fell and nothing was holding the thugs behind anymore. In the 90's thugs (+ ex-KGB) took over all business and then merged with and migrated into government.

Today thugs (KGB is a glorified mafia family) are running the entire country - its simple as that.

Russian people never had a word to say about any of this. Those who tried - got blown up or shot in the back.

[woodandsteel]

I agree Russia can never become a military superpower like it was, but its military is still strong enough to cause lots of problems in the world.

>Under Yeltsin there was no freedom (in fact there was never any freedom in Russia) - there was complete lawlessness. USSR fell and nothing was holding the thugs behind anymore. In the 90's thugs (+ ex-KGB) took over all business and then merged with and migrated into government.

Your comment is a good example of what I am talking about. Under Yeltsin there was little control by the government, so the population was free to organize and promote positive change. Instead they just let things stay bad, and then when a strong leader came along to eliminate the chaos, they give him their full support.

I have read a lot about Russia, and one reason Russians never organize from the bottom up is that Russians view themselves as an unruly people, and so they believe they need an authoritarian leader to tell them what to do and make them do it.

Another problem is that every Russian has very low trust in anyone outside their immediate circle, so they can't form good organizations, like civil society groups or an effective liberal political party.

All this is deeply embedded in Russian culture, as a consequence of many centuries of authoritarian leaders. What Russians need to do is study political philosophy, history and other cultures, and learn what they need to do differently.

Oh, and by the way, Putin has you exactly where he wants you. He would like you to be a supporter, but if people like you are instead cynical and don't try to understand what is needed for positive change, then he is free to stay in power for the rest of his life.

[readhn]

>> Under Yeltsin ... population was free to organize and promote positive change.

I see that you have some illusions about that period, perhaps due to the fact that you could only see it through the lens of the western media. No, population was not free. The gangs controlled the country. If they did not like what you had to say - you were killed on the spot, right out in the open in the daylight. Simple as that. People lived in fear through the 90's. Fear of making ANY move: business - would be taken away from you by the gangs, or politics - ruled by apparatchiki with criminal connections who took you out if they did not like the way you looked that day.

I disagree with your blanket statement that Russians need (or desire) an authoritarian leader. Not all Russians are the same, far from it. (Its similar to going in the middle of USA and concluding that all Americans are god worshiping red necks or something like that.) There are (and were) a lot of progressive thinkers that are capable of organizing an opposition. The issue is - they are forced out of the country by the state (best case scenario) once they gain any traction or are eliminated in one way or another.

The choice for many russians is simple - do i want to suffer physical/mental abuse by the state, fight the system and stay in the country or am i better of immigrating? the choice is simple, especially if you have/want a family.

Russian immigration has been going on for over 100 years now for that very reason.

>>Oh, and by the way, Putin has you exactly where he wants you. He would like you to be a supporter, but if people like you are instead cynical and don't try to understand what is needed for positive change, then he is free to stay in power for the rest of his life.

No Putin does not want me to be where i am now ;) yes im cynical but i do know what is needed for a positive change. there is one little thing - i do not want to waste my life on fighting that system "for the good cause". Life is too short to spend it on "nari".