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by imagist 3557 days ago
Brooklynite here. In theory, I want to be behind taxi drivers. They're a local business owners with ties in the community, and I would rather support them than a Silicon Valley startup with a questionable stance on privacy and poor treatment of their workers.

In reality though, taxis need to fix a few issues:

1. I don't need to be able to hail a cab anywhere--I can't really hail Ubers, either. But if I call a cab, I'd like to have them show up within, say, 15 minutes. The reality is that the explicit promise given by dispatchers is usually an hour, and after an hour, the taxi often doesn't show up. And if I am in an inconvenient area, the time I most need to call a cab, that increases the chances of lateness or no-shows. This could be fixed by fining taxis for lateness or no-shows.

2. Auto-playing ads in taxis. The last thing I want after a long day is a screen yelling at me about some TV show I would rather have a root canal than watch. Unfortunately, it seems more likely that Uber will add ads than that taxis will get rid of them, and I don't see a way to prevent this. Advertising ruins everything.

3. Taxis that will actually take you somewhere inconvenient without a fight. When I lived in Flatbush, most cab rides started off with me having to threaten to call 311 to get them to take me home.

4. Racism. As a white person in a black neighborhood, I've watched black people try to flag cabs and almost universally the cabs just drive past empty. I've gotten in the habit of flagging cabs for black people, and even after the cab stops, sometimes when they realize that it's a black person getting in the cab instead of me, they drive off.

8 comments

I agree with everything you've said. I live in a Chicago neighborhood people might describe as "sketchy," and while cabbies were fine driving me there, getting a cab from my neighborhood was and is an exercise in futility.

Before ridesharing became common, I had the same experience flagging cabs for black people. One time I watched several cabs drive past a young black woman with a child in a stroller. I stood slightly up the block from her, and flagged a cab for her. The cabbie drove off with their trunk open after they realized that I had flagged them for the mother rather than for myself.

I've actually experienced problems getting Ubers and Lyfts in my neighborhood as well though. I live close to a highway, and I'll often get drivers who are on the highway heading westbound, towards one of the wealthiest suburbs in the Chicago area. I'll watch on my map as they "miss" several exits in a row and keep heading west. I've kept my map open long enough to watch them get off on the exit for the nice suburb. With Lyft and Uber, I have a recourse though, because I know their name, and I can watch where they actually end up.

I've noticed that as time has gone on, more and more of the drivers are from my neighborhood or other similar neighborhoods nearby. This has become one of my favorite things about ride sharing. My neighborhood has one of the highest rates of unemployment in the United States. In certain areas, more than half of the young adult males are unemployed. Lyft and Uber, and the gig economy, have created access to economic opportunities that they wouldn't have otherwise had.

That being said, I think "gig employment" is a poor replacement for normal (W4) jobs, since they don't come with the same legal protections and benefits.

>In certain areas, more than half of the young adult males are unemployed. Lyft and Uber, and the gig economy, have created access to economic opportunities that they wouldn't have otherwise had.

Only as long as drivers are needed.

> I've gotten in the habit of flagging cabs for black people, and even after the cab stops, sometimes when they realize that it's a black person getting in the cab instead of me, they drive off.

Good on you. This is terrible - I've never been to NYC but I always hear from black people down there how difficult it is to flag a cab. Wasn't aware that it was still happening to this extent in 2016. The fact that the cab stops and then it drives away right after they find out it's not you entering is disgusting. To be honest I'd rather they drive away than I give my hard earned money to a person or corporation that clearly looks down on me and hates me to such an extent that they are willing to NOT take my money. You say Uber offers a solution to this - what is it? Meh, maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't believe any company (not even AirBnb) can provide enough incentives to mitigate this kind of stuff happening.

> "You say Uber offers a solution to this - what is it?"

Drivers don't get to pick and choose their fares, and canceling a fare after assignment counts against the driver - do it too much and you get kicked off Uber completely.

Uber does some incredibly dodgy things, but on this front they are an absolute and unalloyed improvement over the previous status quo.

This is my primary reason for using Uber. Getting a taxi as a black person in NYC is tough. I usually have to wait on the curb for my (non-black) wife to flag one and then walk up to it once it stops for her.

With Uber/Lyft/Juno etc, there's at least some accountability for the driver. NYC's 311 process isn't enough to deter cabbies that just don't want to pick up black people.

> I don't believe any company (not even AirBnb) can provide enough incentives to mitigate this kind of stuff happening.

They can't stop it altogether, but certainly they can and will mitigate it. We can't stop murder and rape, but we do work hard to mitigate them.

Also Brooklynite.

I'd just like to another: The confidence of knowing that the driver will get me where I need to go. I have, on more than one occasion, gotten in a cab in Williamsburg (which is in Brooklyn), asked to go to Park Slope (also in Brooklyn) and after staring at my phone for a while, looked up to find myself on a bridge headed to Manhattan (not in Brooklyn and not on the way between the two).

With Uber, I punch in my destination before even getting in the car and they just follow GPS. No cabbies that don't know the city making mistakes and no sitting in unnecessary traffic jams that technology could have helped me avoid.

Now when I'm in a proper cab, I have to be on constant high alert to make sure that they're going the right way if not giving them turn-by-turn directions on my own.

I live and work in and near downtown Brooklyn. I have had Uber try to route me over the bridges to get to Williamsburg or Greenpoint, repeatedly and inexplicably. So I'm not sure if that's a solved problem yet.
Thankfully with Uber (Lyft, etc?) you get a trip map afterward.

I had an Uber in SF make a wrong turn onto the bridge to Oakland so he stopped the "meter" and at least I didn't have to pay for it.

With a Taxi it'd be my word against theirs, and the police would take their side. I'd be out the extra fare until I could sue the taxi company and I'd have to hope they didn't delete the video which is my only proof. No thanks.

> But if I call a cab, I'd like to have them show up within, say, 15 minutes. The reality is that the explicit promise given by dispatchers is usually an hour, > and after an hour, the taxi often doesn't show up

Out of curiosity, who are you calling that has these long response times? This reads strangely since you're saying cab/taxi, yet there's no way to call for an NYC yellow cab on the phone... only car services, which are independent companies.

In my experience, nearby Brooklyn car services send cars in 5 to 10 minutes in neighborhoods closer to Manhattan, or maybe around 15 minutes in more far-flung neighborhoods where the car services have smaller fleets. You just have to figure out which car services are physically located in the neighborhood you're in. e.g. call Arecibo from Park Slope where they're based, but don't call them from Coney Island because it's unlikely any of their drivers are there at the moment.

I agree with all of you points. However, most taxi drivers are just leasing the taxi though from the medallion owners. The medallion owners are the small business owners. That being said I do wonder if more medallion owners drove their own taxis if the things you mentioned would change.

This is an interesting read on the medallion/leasing system if anyone is interested:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2015/12/taxicab-med...

In theory you want to support a group of people that are blatantly racist, provide terrible service, and are create a noisy, stressful environment?

This is actually one of most convincing pro-Uber comments I've ever seen.

Sure, by removing all nuance from what I actually said, you can argue for anything.
I think you need to read between the lines of your own post. That's some pretty serious Stockholm Syndrome going on there... Despite horrible service, a forced monopoly, and continual racist crimes, you want to support the incumbent system.

You also got the business aspect totally backwards. Very few taxi drivers own their own medallions so the money almost always flows to a rent-seeking corporation anyways, and at least Uber drivers don't have to rent the medallion each day - if they want to leave early they aren't under any penalty. Taxi drivers pay ~$200 a day to rent their medallion - if they don't make more than that, they've worked all day for a loss.

If you support taxi companies you're abusing the drivers by perpetuating a broken system.

> Despite horrible service, a forced monopoly, and continual racist crimes, you want to support the incumbent system.

That's half of what I said. I also described why I want to support the current system.

> Taxi drivers pay ~$200 a day to rent their medallion - if they don't make more than that, they've worked all day for a loss.

So is the solution to that reform of the medallion system, or is it switching over to a silicon valley startup which will likely become just as exploitative if it isn't already?

> If you support taxi companies you're abusing the drivers by perpetuating a broken system.

If you support Uber, you're abusing the drivers by replacing a broken system with another broken system.

I don't want to support taxi companies, I want to support taxi drivers.

I'll say it again: if you remove all the nuance from what I'm saying, you can use my words to support anything, but I'm not really interested in engaging in this hamfisted debate.

> I also described why I want to support the current system.

Right "Local business owners". But Taxi drivers aren't. They're contractors without any of the benefits of being an employee, or of owning the business. Uber drivers meet all those criteria and more.

Taxi drivers pay to rent their medallion, guaranteeing the rent-seeking owner their profits even on days when the poor driver goes negative. Uber drivers don't even get in their cars until the app lights up. Taxi businesses are clearly predatory and wouldn't be allowed if they were proposed today.

Just like store owners pay rent for their building...

I'm not saying the rent seeking is good--on the contrary, I think it's very bad. But the fact is that your views on which is better for drivers are not shared by drivers. You're also only looking at the current situation--I have a lot more trust that taxi laws can be reformed than that a large amoral corporation whose business is built around loopholes in regulation will self-regulate against their own interests. Even if you think Uber is better for drivers now, I doubt that will be the case for long.

> local business owners

Uber is often locally-owned to the same extent. In both cases, the driver is your neighbor. Uber takes its cut, but the taxi medallion owner who rents the car to the driver might be taking a much bigger cut. Every driver I've met who has made the switch from taxi to Uber/Lyft says they're happier now and earning more.

The only folks you should feel sad about are the drivers who decided to take a loan to buy their own medallion. Those are the folks who need a hand because of the catastrophic collapse of their investment. But hey, that's what bankruptcy is for. Do you feel like failed restauranteurs deserve a bailout?

> Every driver I've met who has made the switch from taxi to Uber/Lyft says they're happier now and earning more.

This was true initially, but is no longer true. Many drivers are switching back, or switching to Gett.

> The only folks you should feel sad about are the drivers who decided to take a loan to buy their own medallion. Those are the folks who need a hand because of the catastrophic collapse of their investment. But hey, that's what bankruptcy is for. Do you feel like failed restauranteurs deserve a bailout?

Medallions are form of corruption mandated by the city. That's a little different from a failed restaurant.

> Gett

Must be a different city. I've never heard of that one.

> different from a failed restaurant

Depending on the city, a liquor license can cost hundreds of thousands, much like a taxi medallion. Seems about the same to me.