[woodcut]

1400 years of persecution has culminated in a denial of access to basic education, healthcare and representation in government. The stereotypes applied to a people who live on the edge society are to some extent true for a dwindling minority who eschew societal norms, but who can blame them. Without access to the jobs market and a path to integration they're largely kept in their place. The response of Romania upon joining the EU was to thrust their failure to integrate the Roma on to other EU member states, who in turn have refused to offer anything resembling comprehensive help. It's sad that there's no realistic prospect for integration and no EU state truly believes in constitutional multiculturalism anymore so no protections will ever be afforded to the roma as are to jewish, christian & muslim minorities.

[welanes]

> The response of Romania upon joining the EU was to thrust their failure to integrate the Roma on to other EU member states, who in turn have refused to offer anything resembling comprehensive help.

Can't speak for the entire EU, but in Ireland Roma have the same opportunity as any EU immigrant. There's no concerted effort to integrate them nor is there institutional prejudice to keep them down. Just good old apathy and a pretty solid social security system.

Any 'failure to integrate' is entirely on their part. Many are fully integrated, some are my friends. Others continue to live lifestyles similar to what has been described in the comments.

[woodcut]

I was trying to point out the nuance between an integrated multiethnic society and a multicultural one involving multiple parallel societies where to a certain extent a minorities own laws take precedence. Going back to the article, I think minorities have an easier time coming to terms with fractured identities in America as at least one can be American-whatever, unlike in Europe in my own experience where you're simply "not from here".

> "nor is there institutional prejudice to keep them down"

It's pretty well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiziganism

[omginternets]

How do you want to integrate a population that refuses to send their children to school?

This is the problem we have in France, and from what I understand, just about everywhere in Europe. The Roma want to live on the fringe of society.

[woodcut]

I personally can't answer that.

But from their perspective, we are the 'others' at the fringe of their society.

[omginternets]

With one key distinction that you're overlooking: we repeatedly extend a helping hand in the form of subsidies, public education, public health, and de-facto tax exemption.

What we get in return is (by and large, with a few highly-publicized exceptions) groups of violent, fraudulent thieves.

I'm sorry but your appeal cultural relativism is little more than denying the problem exists. This is precisely the attitude that contributes to the rise of far-right political parties in Europe.

[woodcut]

This is a succinct example of racism, you've defined an entire ethnicity as "groups of violent, fraudulent thieves." shame on you.

they're human. And don't use "we" i want no association with you.

The rise of the far right over the last 10 years is an economic problem made political. There's no inate superiority of western european culture.

As for "denying the problem exists" far from it, i instead want to see it change rather continuing with another decade of this hate.

[omginternets]

Nice try.

Of course they're human, and shame on your for trying to use shame tactics to derail the discussion.

We can talk about group-level generalities while allowing for individuals that don't correspond to said generalities. Racism is not synonymous with "speaking in generalities", as you know damn well.

Here's another thing you know damn well: groups of people sometimes do bad things. Sometimes they even do these things systematically, save for a few outliers.

>As for "denying the problem exists" far from it, i instead want to see it change rather continuing with another decade of this hate.

Bullshit, as evidenced by your vitriolic accusations of "hate" and "racism" that follow from my description of the very problem you claim to recognize.

On the whole, as a group, Roma are violent, larcenous and fraudulent. This is not racism in the same way that "White people are responsible for slavery and segregation" is not racist. You know this and I know you know this. We see what you're doing, and it's shameful and disgusting.

Returning to the point at hand, it is evident that you've never had a Roma camp in your back yard (and if so, the implications for you are even worse). This attitude is exactly why the far-right is rising in the EU. You refuse to engage in a thoughtful discussion about a problem. Because of people like you, otherwise reasonable people end up saying "fine, call me racist if you want, but this phenomenon exists, I'm worried, and I want to talk about it". So what do they do? They run to the nearest group of people who will hear them out, which in the EU happens to be the far-right. The reason the far-right has this monopoly is because people like you have made the subject radioactive in mainstream politics. You have censored debate. You have stifled democracy. You have blamed victims time and time again. You discredit the grievances of upstanding people based on the color of their skin. You are regression and anti-intellectualism masquerading as progress and tolerance.

If you're European, I blame people like you for Berlusconi, Le Penn and Johnson.

If you're American, you embody the stereotype of the ignorant, arrogant American.

Either way, your impulsive accusations of racism trivialize the real thing, and do more to perpetuate far-right ideology than anything I've ever done, intentionally or otherwise.

For the love of what you claim to cherish: please stop.

[woodcut]

There's no "phenomenon", racism against romani is pretty well documented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiziganism

You can have a debate about the "Roma camp in your back yard", without resorting to racial stereotyping.

[kpil]

>there's no innate superiority of western european culture.

Please expand? I'm not talking about sauerkraut, television and opera here, but about human rights, humanist values and things like that. You know, Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Thoughts that are at the heart of the European culture. Things that millions of people have died for.

[tdkl]

> I personally can't answer that.

Why the armchair preaching about how sad it is that no one wants to bother with this problem then? Maybe no country managed to do it because it's hard to change a culture? Uh no, let's blame racism.

Unless you will use force, money or magical brain washing, you can't make people do something. This wont change and all of those options are unfavourable.