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by __jal 3571 days ago
My goodness, this reads like Stewart Baker is sock-puppeting. If you'd like to convince someone, perhaps sticking to the truth when stating "facts" would be a start. For instance,

> - Snowden did not attempt to go through internal channels.

is simply false.

> - Snowden fled to Russia, a currently not-so-cold competitor of the US.

Nice innuendo. Please state your concerns in a concrete fashion. If it is that he fled, then it doesn't matter to where. If it is that he was stranded in a regime unfriendly to the U.S. regime, what do you expect him to choose? England? Canada? It is also good to remember that U.S. actions are responsible for him being in Russia.

> - Snowden indiscriminately hovered up so many documents, it was impossible to vet all of them.

You elide the difference between taking documents and releasing them. As others have said, vetting was done by journalists.

> - Leaking standard-operating-procedure documents damaged the NSA, and thus the security / defense of the US.

1) Assuming "damage" is defined as spending money and time to evaluate the breach and implement corrective measures, sure. I've yet to see anyone point to anything beyond "I can't tell you, but be very afraid". Remember how the release was going to lead to imminent terrorists attacks in Missouri?

> - Snowden's documents ended up in the hands of Russian and Chinese intelligence agencies.

Proof, please.

> - Snowden leaked / whistleblowed these documents in an operation using his secret agent skills.

"Secret agent skills?" Isn't that normally spelled with a "z" on the end?

> - Snowden's innocent leaks, such as the entire Intellipedia, damaged the intelligence community, causing them to "clam up", and place more mistrust on "outsiders", such as high-school diploma Snowden.

"High-school diploma"? WTF? Have the courage to say what you mean or cut the cheap shots. I except that sort of low-rent smearing from Slashdot and gov-contractor flacks, not Hacker News. And which is it - is Snowden a mad-1337 super agent super hacker, or and uneducated outsider? Character assassination works much better when you're a bit more consistent.

Anyway, shorn of the non-sequitur schoolyard taunting, what is the complaint? Intelligence operatives, shown to have expanded surveillance far beyond the imaginations of the voters in the democracy that supposedly as a voice in what they do, had their feelings hurt when they were exposed?

This is the same argument made by police apologists: if you keep taking pictures of us illegally killing people, we'll stop doing our jobs.

> - Snowden gave the document cache to incompetent journalists. Greenwald send his boyfriend to smuggle documents through British customs.

So you don't like Greenwald. That's lovely. Now please describe how the romantic connection indicates incompetence, and what exactly the bad result that said incompetence lead to.

> But I do not believe in a pardon for someone who misuses his admin privileges to download all the documents he could get his hands on, then flees to Russia.

Please describe the conditions under which whistleblowing is acceptable to you. If Snowden had received the documents from someone else (thus hadn't "misuse[d] hist admin privileges"), would that make it OK for him, but not for the hypothetical other person? Of it he hadn't been stranded by the U.S. in Russia (he didn't choose to stay)?

Based on your litany above, it sounds like intelligence whistleblowing is only acceptable to you when the documents involved are officially released, the release doesn't damage any existing power structures, no intelligence operatives have their fee-fees hurt, and the leaker is better educated and collaborates with journalists you personally like more.

2 comments

You ask for parent to provide proof in some places but don't provide it yourself which makes me think you're more interested in arguing versus being productive (which, to be fair, some of parent's points sound like they're coming from a similar place). But just in case I have a few questions

>> - Snowden did not attempt to go through internal channels.

> is simply false.

As far as I was ever able to find Snowden emailed "district heads". That was the only internal channel he went through that I could find. Considering the NSA and the DoD in general each have channels to go through along with far, far more appropriate people to email / call about it (district heads is something you basically never hear about in the intel space; they're not useful at getting anything done) I would also say he did not go through internal channels.

If you have proof outside of this I'd love to read it.

> If it is that he fled, then it doesn't matter to where.

Why does it not? He had a very, very large corpus of classified intelligence that any enemy of the United States would love to get their hands on. Granted he had little choice once he got to China but I don't understand the claim that it doesn't matter where he went considering the payload he was carrying.

> You elide the difference between taking documents and releasing them. As others have said, vetting was done by journalists.

I'm not sure I would consider that vetting. Regardless a large corpus of classified and likely damaging data was taken, carried and given to multiple parties. A vetting prior to documents being indiscriminately taken would have been far more responsible though the considerable time that would have taken would have made leaking impossible in the first place.

I wouldn't be so quick so side with every single thing Snowden did to avoid being cast as a zealot.

> I would also say he did not go through internal channels.

I have no opinion on the "district heads" thing. I've never worked in the non-private intel world. Most of what I know on the topic is here:

https://news.vice.com/article/edward-snowden-leaks-tried-to-...

This has been spun exceptionally hard in multiple versions of their story, and as best I can tell, "proper channels" as used by NSA flacks at this point means "people who could shut him up." This is based on the FIOA'd discussions found in the above-linked documents. Snowden's account hasn't changed and has matched details the NSA story only included in later versions (apparently because there were releases they didn't expect with contrary facts after their first version). Everyone, of course, will form their own opinions about this.

But let's say that Snowden never attempted to tell anyone inside, at all. Do you think the general population of the U.S. would have learned what is being done in their name? Do you think a single program would have changed, even the cosmetic renaming and budget-shuffling that allows spokesmuppets tell highly deceptive technical-truths in congressional hearings?

>> If it is that he fled, then it doesn't matter to where. >Why does it not?

You misread. I am not arguing that it doesn't matter; I'm parsing the GP's argument.

> I'm not sure I would consider that vetting.

Many people have differences of opinion. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear of a vetting scheme that would both satisfy critics and have informed the general public to the same degree.

My personal belief is that the damage done by an out-of-control intelligence regime is far greater than burning necessarily transient sources and methods. Even if it weren't, I'd grade the disclosure on a curve, because the spin coming out of any intelligence agency about this sort of thing is inherently untrustworthy, and intelligence has to be kept on a short leash. Add to that the incredible scale of the NSA/Five Eyes networks and the fact that the NSA is demonstrably harming (at least) civilian security by emphasizing offense over defense, and we have something incredibly frightening with intrusive capabilities the Stasi could only have dreamed of. You can have that, or you can have democracy, but I don't believe you can have both. And that's only looking at "official" uses; we know NSA employees also have used the data for, ah, call it personal reasons. Both anti-democratic uses are inevitable.

> I wouldn't be so quick so side with every single thing Snowden did to avoid being cast as a zealot.

You're clearly not. Oh, you're trying to politely advise me? I don't side with Snowden (or Greenwald, or Wheeler, or...) on everything (or even "a lot"), but I probably am a zealot by your definition, because I believe the "moderate" approach here is a vastly (as in arguing over orders of magnitude) scaled-back, retooled NSA/FBI/CIA.

> "High-school diploma"? WTF? Have the courage to say what you mean or cut the cheap shots.

As someone with only a high-school diploma myself, I do not like others with only a high-school diploma, who blow the chances they've been given.

Should Snowden only have been glad someone took a chance on him and shut up? No. He did a brave thing.

Will it be harder in the future for someone with only a high-school diploma to get admin access at the NSA, as a result of Snowden's actions? Yes. NSA will start focussing on Ivy League students and family members of NSA employees.

> So you don't like Greenwald. That's lovely. Now please describe how the romantic connection indicates incompetence, and what exactly the bad result that said incompetence lead to.

I think Greenwald is an ok journalist. I think it is grave incompetence to use your romantic interest as a document mule. Journalists may be able to handle sensitive documents. The partners of those journalists... not so much. They are basically civilians.

The bad result is that his partner was caught by customs and detained. A bad result may have been that other agencies got to his partner before the UK did. Everyone around Greenwald became a target the moment he was in possession of the cache. That he actually gave the documents to his partner, shows that he was a valid target at that.

Do you honestly think Snowden thought it was a good idea that Greenwald let his partner handle these documents?