[Tenhundfeld]

I'm sure it's different in different markets, different countries, etc.

That said, I know several people who own multiple homes and lease them out. They often barely break even with mortgage payments, maintenance, dealing with deadbeat tenants, etc. Sure, once a house is paid off, they have a nice source of income, but they're taking a decent amount of risk having so much of their money tied up in such a limited number of investments. Some of them are still under water on rental property mortgages after the 2008 crash.

They're not skimming labour off of their tenants. They're providing a service for a fee.

And if you're talking about large apartment complexes, that's not some landlord "rentier" class. That's a corporation, just like any other.

You don't have to pay to exist; just ask any homeless person. If you want to live in a home or any type of shelter, you have to make it yourself or obtain access to one that has been built. It has always been so. There are various ways to obtain access: squat, pay rent, perform services in exchange, couchsurf, join a commune, convince friends or family to accept you, buy, etc.

[branchless]

> They often barely break even with mortgage payments, maintenance, dealing with deadbeat tenants, etc. Sure, once a house is paid off, they have a nice source of income

So they get several hundred K for very little work that anyone could do.

There is no risk with the central bank land ramping. In urban areas they are limiting supply, forcing up prices and taking labour.

If someone does very little work and gets several hundred K that comes from somewhere.

[Programmatic]

If it was free money, everybody would be doing it. If it has no downsides, what's stopping you?

[branchless]

I don't want to exploit working people. Weird, eh?

[Tenhundfeld]

Why is it necessarily exploiting people to charge a market rate for a good or service?

That makes no sense, unless you just don't believe in private property – which is a different argument and not one I'm super interested in having.

And honestly, if you think it's so easy to be a landlord, you should try it. It's not. It can be fairly easy, until you have:

- a tenant who won't pay but also refuses to leave, necessitating legal action to evict, which is doubly expensive due to the legal fees and lost income

- a tenant who wrecks the property, e.g., letting their cat pee all over the wood floor, but refuses to provide any additional money to remedy

- a tenant who falls in the yard and initiates a frivolous lawsuit against you

- squatters who refuse to leave and require police action

- a roof that needs replacing, new HVAC, new appliances, etc.

Investing in rental properties often performs no better than just investing in the general stock market. Is that exploiting people? Is it exploiting people to have a savings account that pays interest? Anybody can do that and gets free money.

[branchless]

Wrong. Here is why most "invest" in exploitation. Banks lend you several times your salary. You are not appreciating the dynamics my dear rentier.

[Tenhundfeld]

I still don't understand. Just because a bank will lend someone money to buy a home, why is it exploitative to offer someone else the chance of living in that home?

I wish we could sit down over coffee or whatevs and discuss this. I feel like we must have fundamentally different views of the world, and I would like to understand yours better. I rarely meet people whose views I don't understand, even if I disagree – especially people to the "left" of me.

I rented for as long as I've now been a homeowner. I never felt like I was being exploited as a renter. I was essentially paying the same in rent as a mortgage, but as a renter, I got a ton of advantages. For example, I didn't have to pay for maintenance of the home, I got access to nice amenities, and I got the flexibility to easily move somewhere else at the end of the year. For a fee, I got to offload a huge amount of stress onto someone else – the property owner.

I know someone who owns two homes and rents them out. Meanwhile, she lives in a small rented townhouse shared with 2 other housemates. She does this, because she's very handy and can do most of the maintenance herself. And she feels she understands the real estate market better than the stock/bond market. So, these homes are basically her retirement savings. She's not forcing anyone to live in them, and she can't afford to have them sit vacant very long. So, she must price them at a rate that will attract renters. I just don't see the exploitation in that scenario.