[healthnutter]

Asking seriously, but isn't Russia fundamentally closer to a kleptocracy? Dishonesty is apparently more pervasive and built in to their culture. From my understanding, bribe culture and cheating are an accepted norm. Not to say these characteristics do not exist in America, just not anywhere to the same extent?

[csydas]

I've lived in SPB for a few years now (american expat), and there's...some truth to it. The idea of cops just grifting you non-stop is overstated; more likely than not they just wanna not have to do work. Even when it comes to checking documents for folks from the southern countries (uzbekistan, tajikistan, etc) most of the time the police try to speed stuff along so they can get back to smoking, having tea, or stopping off at a kebab place.

Even though everyone I know here calls the process "bribing", it's greasing the wheels - in some ways, it's bad that it happens. At the same time though, everyone is allowed to participate in the bribing and whoever takes the bribes can and will settle for what they can get.

I wouldn't say dishonesty is more pervasive - quite the opposite, most people are brutally honest, sometimes to a fault. When it comes to official things, it's true, you can grease the wheels and get preferential treatment. Certain problems can go away with a few well placed notes, and so on. Schools are a bit different too since the collapse of the Soviet Union. From what I'm told, there's a lot of pressure from the state to ensure that students pass, so students will repeat through classes as long as necessary to pass them, and often professors will just give out the lowest possible passing grade to get rid of bad students. A little bit of cash will net you a better grade, which will get you access to better universities.

Just as an outsider looking in and watching, I see it more as the same bad system that exists elsewhere but at least the system is open to everyone.

[dragonwriter]

> Even though everyone I know here calls the process "bribing", it's greasing the wheels

"Greasing the wheels" is a popular euphemism for bribery, not a distinct different act which contrasts with bribery.

[csydas]

No, I think you're conflating when I'm specifically talking about just getting better service.

See there's another slight disconnect with service in Russia versus service in the US. You ever have someone go out of their way to make something easier or better for you as part of their job? Go the extra mile? That's not really the status quo in Russia. You goof up your registration form at the post office (one mistake on the 4th page of a 10 page document)? Guess who's filling it out again, even if the office worker has white out handy. Only have 30 minutes to take care of something at the nearby government office but it happens to be 1:45 pm and time for the official's tea break? Guess who's not getting their document done.

When people are talking about greasing the wheel, it's getting access to systems they otherwise don't have. It's people going the extra mile on demand, getting the inside scoop, making sure a document gets processed today, taking care of problems for you internally. Do the big bribes happen? Yeah, I'm not denying that. My point more is that the "bribes" that are talked about so much aren't really what we normally think of as bribes.

[dragonwriter]

> You goof up your registration form at the post office (one mistake on the 4th page of a 10 page document)? Guess who's filling it out again, even if the office worker has white out handy.

That's pretty much my experience in most government offices in the US, too.

> When people are talking about greasing the wheel, it's getting access to systems they otherwise don't have.

Paying privately to the official for access for service from public officials that is not generally made available is "bribery". Yes, "greasing the wheel" is a euphemism for bribery that is often used particularly for small bribes for small favors (though "small" is relative to who is speaking.)

> My point more is that the "bribes" that are talked about so much aren't really what we normally think of as bribes.

They are exactly what most people with experience in domains where there is the kind of lack of accountability which makes pervasive bribery a thing expect as the most common kind of bribery. (When there is some accountability, the perceived risk/reward of smaller transactions becomes less favorable more quickly than is the case for larger transactions -- if as a public employee you are going to get fired and be unemployable in the public sector, and maybe prosecuted, if you are caught taking any bribe, and there is even a modest risk of detection in even small bribes, its no longer worth it to take small bribes in any case.)

[PeterisP]

The implied difference is that in bribery you're asking the official to do something that they must not do, to have him act against his employer.

To use a restaurant analogy, tipping the bartender to get quicker service is "greasing the wheels" but tipping the bartender to get drinks "on the house" or to get an exclusive event without paying the bar owner - that would be bribery.

[dragonwriter]

> The implied difference is that in bribery you're asking the official to do something that they must not do, to have him act against his employer.

That's not the usual definition of "bribery" (though generally it is true of all bribery, including the type you are trying to distinguish, since taking extra personal pay for service is usually formally prohibited, even in places where it isn't effectively enforced, so even what you try to distinguish as "greasing the wheels" as distinct from "bribery" is asking the official to do something that they must not do, and acting against the employer.)

[mlvljr]

Which part of the city you are in, btw? :)

[sologoub]

Russian culture and the current situation in the country are quite different. Honesty and sincerity are highly valued traits, to the point that Westerners are still labeled as disingenuous for smiling too much - Russians view this as fake and therefore less trustworthy. This of course is changing, as the younger generations are more exposed to western behaviors.

The real problem is the economic situation and people that focus on personal enrichment by any means instead of building something sustainable. Basically, in an environment where you cannot be sure of what next year is going to look like, it's brutally rational to try and extract as much value now, as opposed to invest for the future.

As the result, you get everything from poor infrastructure investment and lack of true small business growth, all the way to bribing because the official taking the bribe isn't sure he or she will have this access tomorrow, so better to enrich now and as fast as possible.

This is not something that is endemic to Russian culture, but rather to the survival situation. Unfortunately, Russia seems to teeter in this state for centuries at a time.

[tremon]

The US just uses different words, such as "campaign financing", or "creative accounting".

[postila]

Go on and try offering "campaign financing", or "creative accounting" to a policeman stopped you for speeding somewhere in California. Don't forget to record it on your smartphone.

In Russia, literally ANY road policeman not only takes bribes, but has a bag of tricks how to get more from you.

Unfortunately it's well-known to me, from my own experience. (10+ years of driving on Russian roads, 4+ in California)

[fdgdasfadsf]

In the US the policeman can legally just take your car and your cash. They don't need to mess around with tricks. (Look up civil assert forfeiture.)

[postila]

And I understand what you're saying. Similar things are happening when your child goes to school/college/etc. You pay for smth and she/he gets preferences. As I see, it's common both in US and Russia.

But between bribing and things you mentioned there is one essential difference, that changes everything. It's this question:

- Are rules known in advance, are they written and available in public?

I believe this question helps to distinguish black and white.

[radicsge]

+ lobbying