[realz]

I can only speak about myself, I come from a lower middle class family in India and probably was the poorest in my school. Now, I am at senior position in large well established tech company and definitely doing better than any of my class mates back in India.

My family still lives in India and I am amazed how tough their life is when dealing with every day things.

My life is so much better than my sister's who lives in Pune and also works in a similar position for a tech company. She would move to US in a heartbeat but has some personal issues.

This is how bad conditions in India are, my mother, who lost her husband when she was 34, worked all her life and raised 2 kids on her own. After several decades of employment, she needed to withdraw some money out of her PF account. She had to bribe at least 4 guys and pay a total of 20,000INR to be able to withdraw money from her account, her own hard earned money.

Life in India is pretty bad, I do believe us Indians have a "chalta hai" attitude and a lot of problems are just shoved under the rug or considered "yahan aise hi kaam hota hai" (this is how things are done here) category.

I would want India to be the same as US where I have lived now for more than 15 years and Bollywood movies keep promising me that India today is so much like any other developed country, but my 15 visits in the last 15 years break every one of those promises.

Back to the original point, no financially a person earning at the same position in India vs US is not any better off by a huge margin.

Now if your point was is it worth it moving from Germany or Australia to US, then the answer is completely different answer.

India is not there yet, a lot of work needs to be done, a lot of change needs to happen. If people in India start believing that they have arrived then they will be doing themselves a hige disservice.

[pm90]

Agree with this comment. The culture of corruption is anathema to a lot of middle-class workers who sincerely believe in the value of hard-work and honesty and yet are prevented from doing even the most basic things in everyday life. You do not need to "have connections" to get what you're legally supposed to. Not to mention that there is just no comparison between the compensation offered in the US to anywhere else.

[reacharavindh]

I second the opinions posted above. Just a few days ago, we were comparing the costs of housing at a decent place (in the city/closer suburbs) are 3 to 4 years of my gross annual pay. If I dreamed of similar housing in India (Chennai, where I'm from), it would cost me ~30 years of my market annual salary for a similar job there. I don't want to work my life off to get a house to retire in.

[kamaal]

And yet you can buy a house in the outskirts in any major Indian city for way less. Which used to be how most middle class Indians used to buy homes in my dad's generation.

The issue is most of us want housing in luxury apartments with amenities with no match, and with transit infrastructure closer to office. This was and always will remain very expensive in any economy on earth let alone Chennai.

It will take more or less the same in any major city in the US. Most Indians think if they land in the US, all problems will vanish in thin air, milk and honey will flow from now. While what really happens is all your problems remain as is, except that you get a little better roads.

Please take a good look on all housing related threads on this forum, young people in western economies have it way difficult than any of us.

[pm90]

> And yet you can buy a house in the outskirts in any major Indian city for way less. Which used to be how most middle class Indians used to buy homes in my dad's generation.

And how do you get to the city? Through the non-existent highways? Or maybe the congested public transportation, if any? Besides which, I don't know about you, but my parents could not afford a house until I was in high school. And even after buying the house, they still could not live in the house (because of aforementioned problems with commuting).

> The issue is most of us want housing in luxury apartments with amenities with no match, and with transit infrastructure closer to office. This was and always will remain very expensive in any economy on earth let alone Chennai.

Please stop projecting your opinions on others. The demand I see is mostly for livable quarters at reasonable distances with basic amenities and some expectation of privacy... which seems to be too much to ask in any of the major cities.

> It will take more or less the same in any major city in the US. Most Indians think if they land in the US, all problems will vanish in thin air, milk and honey will flow from now. While what really happens is all your problems remain as is, except that you get a little better roads.

I don't know where you're getting these ideas from. Better roads yes, but also: better work-life balance. Decent compensation. Reasonable vacation time. Great career prospects. The prospect of living and working with people from different cultures (not just American, but from many other countries as well).

> Please take a good look on all housing related threads on this forum, young people in western economies have it way difficult than any of us.

Again, please stop projecting your ideas/views on the rest of us.

[kamaal]

Surely won't project my opinion while receiving yours.

>>The demand I see is mostly for livable quarters at reasonable distances with basic amenities and some expectation of privacy... which seems to be too much to ask in any of the major cities.

But based on what you just wrote you can relocate to pretty much any city on earth and these problems would barely change. While in US most of my colleagues who had homes lived in far suburbs. This is a international trend. Places close to office had insane rents. And from what I learn property taxes are quite high in California and Texas where most of our desi dudes stay.

This is not a US vs India issue. This basically how demand and supply economics works.

>>better work-life balance. Decent compensation. Reasonable vacation time. Great career prospects. The prospect of living and working with people from different cultures (not just American, but from many other countries as well).

Again all of this is possible if you have an expensive STEM degree. Take note that they are good deal of US citizens who work on minimum wage. There is likely nearly everyone who works for $60K or less. Tech and Medical workforce that comes from India is really like people landing into good salaries at the very start. This could all change if the persons very kids don't get a STEM degree.

I understand that for most people making these immigration decisions its very hard to reconcile with these things.

[reacharavindh]

I have lived exactly both the scenarios you just described. (1) Lived in a suburb of Chennai commuting 15-20 Kms to work. It took 1 hour to get to work and 1 hour back regardless of how much I can pay for it. That's 2 hours of my life wasted every day! - All the while paying my mortgage that would last until my retirement. (2) Now, Live in a US city. Ironically, work in a suburb, but live in Downtown 20 miles away. I spend 20 mins in commuting to work, peacefully. With my pay, I'm confident I can pay off my mortgage in under 12 years. Now, I'm not saying this is true everywhere in the US. Living in NYC might be the extreme case, whereas living in the countryside would be cheapest. I'm trying to compare equivalent in my mind.

First step towards change and improvement is to accept the need for it. IMO.

[kamaal]

I can imagine how hard it must be for you. Most of us have these stories.

But sir, If you have been out of India for ~15 years now, you are now totally out of touch about ground realities in India. Also it takes far more to get decent health care and housing in US than it takes in India. Apart from this you have the added advantage of a social circle in India in case of death, disease and debt which is totally absent in US.

In most US coastal cities(Only places where can make a decent career) rents are high, and affording a home is basically 2-3 decade venture. And after all that you still have to struggle for your retirement fund and health care during old age.

India has a lot of vacuum as a developing economy for both investments and a long term career.

Also this whole corruption issue is sometimes overplayed. The last time I dealt with a government office for anything was passport office where no bribes were paid, not even to the police who came for verification.

Political, economic and social climate in India is undergoing huge upgrades every decade and anybody who stays abroad for 10+ years essentially would have lost all context about things back home.

[tw04]

The US coastal cities are the only place you can make a decent career? As someone who doesn't live in a coastal city, and makes a very, very good living, I find that hilariously inaccurate. If I look at the list of fortune 500 companies with a large presence in Chicago, Dallas, Houston and Minneapolis, I'd say you're about as wrong as could possibly be. Unless by "decent living" you mean "startup valued at billions of dollars".

[kamaal]

Largely depends on what you work on. I have relatives from India who are doctors who stay in non-coastal cities and make a decent living. Unfortunately if you have to make it big money wise you have to ultimately play the start up game, where the biggest center in the world today is the Bay Area.

Also as some one who has lived both in Bangalore and Bay Area, I know well to understand cities matter in the sense if you are in the middle of all the action chances of progress and growth are higher. Or your long term competitiveness and career will likely suffer.

Sure some hipster culture exists in the Bay Area, but for all of it. There is a lot of good work in Bay Area, and I think if you are in tech and are an immigrant you must absolute stay there.

[realz]

I speak to my friends and family in India on a daily basis, I also visit India almost every year and I stand by every word I wrote above. If you think life in India is up to the standard of living of any other developed country, then you need to educate yourself.

[kamaal]

Never did I say things in India have are better than US. But things have so drastically improved incentives to go foreign lands are lesser.

India has grown by leaps and bounds. Opportunities compared to what was 15-20 years back aren't even comparable now. Unless you come and live here, you wouldn't have a clue. Calling and talking to relatives won't give you a good idea. They think you are living in heaven, this perspective exists because NRI's send pictures of vacations and their cars and people in India think its all coming either for free or through magic.

I have faced this issue too. People think all they have to do is land in US and pretty much all their issues are solved without doing anything at all. Most people staying in India haven't a clue about life in US. They have never heard about how expensive higher education is, or health care for that matter. They do not realize what it takes to have a mortgage in a place like Bay Area. They haven't heard of minimum wage. They don't know how strict tax laws are. They don't even know how few options their kids have in life if they don't get into STEM branches. This along with harshness of what can happen to your dependents should something happen to your life. Without a strong social circle all these things are hard and set back life for dependents.

Most people, aspiring to come to US are thinking on the lines of Disneyland and Yosemite. And at best the US 101 freeway.

Plus I see this whole thing among NRI's about wishing bad things to happen to India and overplay things about conditions in India to make their own decisions look good. Its sad.

I have lived in US and India. Things are just going full hyper in India. Things might not be same as US, but its no longer the binary 1 or 0 it used to be in the pre-2003/90's era.

[geodel]

Things have improved (drastically?) only for a sliver of population. I talk to so many of my relatives and apart from some already well-off, working in high-tech industry most of them are way worse in term of living standard than they were 15-20 years back. Everything is so much expensive when compared to their rupee income.

Things can become violent at any time even in big cities. Just look at Bengaluru etc situation now due to Cauvery issue. It has already caused Rs 22000 crore worth of loss.

[kamaal]

>>Things have improved (drastically?) only for a sliver of population. I talk to so many of my relatives and apart from some already well-off, working in high-tech industry most of them are way worse in term of living standard than they were 15-20 years back.

Same in US too right?

Its not like everyone works at Wall Street and drives Rolls Royce. You don't hear about these things in US simply because you haven't set up a family big enough there. Whoever is in US would have generally come on tech work or Medical degree, which are paid well in the US. Other people especially in Non-STEM branches, are basically the equivalent of people you talk about it in India. And please don't even have me start on inequality in the US.

And small businesses in US are not like in India. So most of that population in US works at Warehouses and Walmart sort of places.

>>Everything is so much expensive when compared to their rupee income.

Food is relatively expensive in India(Based on inflation figures). Otherwise higher education is far more expensive in US and student debt takes a good few years to climb out of. Housing in any major US city is a 2 decade mortgage undertaking. And retirement with health care(even other wise) is very expensive in the US.

>>Things can become violent at any time even in big cities. Just look at Bengaluru etc situation now due to Cauvery issue. It has already caused Rs 22000 crore worth of loss.

And you talk of Law and order situation, shooting incidents at schools in US are everyday news these days.

Things are no more the binary they used to be.

[bruceb]

"no bribes were paid, not even to the police who came for verification"

But there are the daily annoyances like even having to have the police come to verify you live somewhere. Having to get X, Y, Z documents and then waiting for them to get stamped for basic services.

On the other hand transferring money to other person's bank account is actually easier and cheaper than in the US.

[kamaal]

Procedures regarding legal work are same in every country and equally expensive. Especially if your work is some how related to government or its security.

If anything these checks are harsher in other countries than in India.