[LoSboccacc]

because the whole thing lives off trust. if any certificate could be self signed for getting the browser trust, all MITM attack would go unnoticed unless the browser is pinning the hash of specific domains.

that's why it's so important to blacklist fast certificate authority that do no domain ownership validation; it's a frail system, but it's the best we got for now.

[pdkl95]

So you prefer plaintext, which is even easier to MITM? These MITM attacks go unnoticed every day. Logging self signed certificates at least gives us a chance at detecting a MITM.

All of your concerns require an assumption that the browser uses unauthenticated encryption the same as PKI authenticated. Please stop conflating encryption with authentication; they solve different problems. This attitude that a partial solutions should be actively discouraged is why the internet is still uses plaintext which should have been dropped years ago.

[LoSboccacc]

nothing like that, this is just a strawman and you don't get to put words that weren't in my comment just to make a random point about authentication and encryption

encrypted works against MITM because of the certificate trust, if you remove certificate trust from the equation, you'd get the exact opposite result: encrypted would be as secure as plaintext.

[pdkl95]

> strawman ...words that weren't in my comment

What, exactly, are you suggesting is a strawman? I was directly addressing your points.

> encrypted works against MITM because of the certificate trust

Nonsense. Encryption works because of $MATH and a shared secret (or matched pair of secrets) between the two parties communicating (the key or public-key/private-key set). With those elements, communication is protected from 3rd party eavesdroppers. What is not provided is authentication of the 2nd party.

Authentication entirely separate feature. Yes, you should use these two features together whenever possible, as it is very important to both authenticate who you are talking to and protect the conversation from 3rd parties. However, either feature on its own is still better than plaintext.

Yes, without authentication it is possible (and sometimes easy) to MITM an encrypted channel. That does not mean all situations are equal[1]. Self signed certificates can be logged, for example, which can sometimes detect a new or changed MITM. The MITM doesn't have the signing key, which is why the certificate is self signed instead of simply leaving it unsigned.

> encryption would be as secure as plaintext

Security depends on your threat model, and encryption alone protects against traditional non-MITM wiretapping. This includes many forms of mass-surveillance. Just because it is possible to bypass that protection with a MITM doesn't mean you should just give up and send plaintext. (and assuming that everyone can and will get a certificate is delusional; see this very thread for examples) Raising the complexity and cost of an attack is good security.

Yes, the UI should probably report unauthenticated encryption as not trusted, just like plaintext. Also, "secure" is a vague term that is overloaded with multiple meanings which can be misleading. It is better to indicate if something is "authenticated", "protected against eavesdropping", etc.

[1] http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm

[LoSboccacc]

sure thing, then please go and highlight for me where I wrote, suggested, hinted or implied

> So you prefer plaintext

[nanis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcl17Q0bpk

[wallunit]

Not that this is the same situation with unencrypted websites anyways.

[LoSboccacc]

Yeah but for encrypted websites you need to trust the certificate. Parent wasn't talking ss vs plain, but ss vs ca. If a self signed google.com would be accepted by firefox, it'd be much much worse. You'd thought is secure and instead it may not be. The system we have isn't flawless, but it beats having to pin down every signature manually if browsers started treating self signed as trusted