[guard-of-terra]

Russia only became member of WTO very late, the process was hindered without end.

Russia briefly explored possibility of joining NATO but was met with cold stares and disengaged.

Russia opted for e.g. visa waiver with Schengen area (EU), but that got nowhere in ten years.

Regarding win-win guys, after a few years in early 90s it became impossible for a Russian to be one. It was vividly shown that "the night is dark and full of terrors".

[woodandsteel]

From what I understand, it got in the WTO only recently because it took so long to enact the needed reforms to meet WTO standards. As far as NATO goes, I find my links on that topic more persuasive.

Guard-of-terra, let me ask you some questions. First, what do you think Putin's long term goals are, and how long do you think he has had them? Does he want to take Eastern Europe back, and has wanted this since it was lost back in 1989, or has he come to this goal only in the last few years, or would he be happy if it remained aligned with the West?

Also, what do you think the West's goals are? Do you think that ever since 1991 it has wanted to conquer Russia, or at least make it poor, weak, and subservient? Or do you think that starting in 1991 it wanted to Russia to be democratic, independent, and prosperous, and only later became hostile toward it as a response to Putin's rhetoric and actions? Or perhaps you have some third view.

[guard-of-terra]

WRT WTO: Everybody got there before Russia. Even the most peculiar and closed off economies. It shows that everybody were cut some slack but Russia was boned. That's what I'm talking about. Judging purely from results.

I think that Putin's long term goals is sitting on the throne and avoiding violence against himself and his buddies. Everything else is "nice to have". Futhermore, there's two Eastern Europes that are no longer smart to compound (Russia is Eastern Europe too for that matter, makes it three):

- Non-USSR non-Russian-speaking ex-socialist countries, who're already consumed by EU. - Ex-USSR mostly-Russian-speaking ex-communist republics, who are/were in CIS.

Baltic states are somewhat in-between.

I think that since 1991 the West did not care about Russia. They looted the corpse basically. And they didn't give a shit about Russia until the corpse in question began moving.

They definitely didn't lift too many fingers towards "Russia to be democratic, independent, and prosperous".

As for "poor, weak, and subservient", that's the default state of things on planet Earth (entropy?) so you don't need master plan to attain it.

[woodandsteel]

So you are basically cynical about both Russia and the West. And the implication seems to be that there is no point in citizens in Russia or the West trying to make things better, because it is all hopeless. Have I got you right?

[guard-of-terra]

Nope, I definitely don't think so. Direct electronic democracy could be a step forward. Basic Income could be a step forward. Green energy could catch up finally.

(That's country level, right. My expectations on international politics are bearish)

Things becoming better are not impossible, but improbable. The outlook isn't bright. Too many things to be fixed and no popular will to do so. The situation with global Muslim migration (and disregard of social progress) is especially dangerous and can ruin everything quick.