[woodandsteel]

Russia is behind the US and China because it has a far smaller population and economy.

Furthermore, the US and China are strongly promoting renewable energy to replace fossil fuels. Russia is doing almost nothing along these lines (think of all the renewable energy stories you see here at HN. None of them are about Russia).

Here's a link on the coverage of global climate change by the state-controlled Russian media: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-climatechange-summit-russi...

By the way, American conservatives are completely opposed to Putin and Russia (except for Donald Trump, who is very friendly). But in this issue they are in complete agreement.

[ivan_gammel]

Russia does promote renewable energy and invest in it, but it may not receive much coverage in English. You can read Wikipedia article at least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Russia

The link you've provided is an example of primitive and one-sided picture of Russia painted by some Western media, that does not even show any signs of fact-checking (interviewing few people from opposition and not asking for comments from Ministry of Environment - is that the way media work in USA or UK?). Please, note that I'm not a Putin's fan and never voted for him or his cronies. I'm writing this comment to help, because you were fed with BS and here's the advice: do not trust even well-known and respected media, when they are writing about "the rest of the world". They simply don't care to write the truth, because they will not be caught and sued.

[woodandsteel]

That wikipedia article actually says just the opposite. According to it the hydro power was almost all built in the Soviet era, the wind is small agricultural units also built long ago with no large, modern installations, and there is virtually no solar power.

[ivan_gammel]

So what? Germany moved from 6% to 30% of renewable energy in 15 years, because they had policy and they invested. Russia started 10 years later. Every section of that article mentions investment projects in that kind of renewable energy that became possible only in recent years for economical reasons. And the investments in solar are not limited just to building of plants - government wants to build a manufacturing industry for them, which to me is the clear sign of interest and commitment.

[woodandsteel]

No, the article, talks about government intentions and plants that are being built, but almost nothing has been completed, and so at present there is virtually no solar energy in Russia, and virtually no new wind energy.

The problem here is that what the article talks about are government plans in an authoritarian regime, and as we all know from the history of Russia and many other authoritarian nations, it is quite common for such plans to never be actually carried out.

You know, you yourself said you don't like Putin, but you seem to trust the stories his tightly-controlled media put out on what Russia is doing about the environment and renewable energy. It seems to me that is rather contradictory.

[ivan_gammel]

I agree that plans tend to change, but there exist completed projects and there exists legislation in this field (it's almost impossible at this moment to pass a law that is disapproved by regime, so if anything exists it means there's very strong support of it). It's not that I trust state media, but it's always possible to verify what they've reported. Here are couple stories:

1. Energy efficiency: state corporation Rusnano (investment fund for supporting high tech manufacturing and research in nanotechnology and related fields) invested in manufacturing of LED lighting http://en.rusnano.com/portfolio/companies/optogan Meanwhile, Ministry of Energy gradually implements ban for manufacturing of 60W and higher light bulbs (100W already banned) and prohibition of use of such bulbs in state and municipal offices.

2. Renewable energy: Burbai Solar Plant launched in Dec 2015 by Rusnano, Hevel and Renova. 70% of components manufactured in Russia. http://en.rusnano.com/press-centre/news/20151102-rusnano-hev...

[woodandsteel]

@ivan_gammel, I would like to ask you some questions.

To start, I said we don't see links here at HN about renewable energy in Russia because nothing is going on. You replied that lots is, and the reason we don't see stories is because the US and UK media is biased against Russia.

But HN also publishes many links on renewable energy from scientific and technology industry sources. Are you saying that they are likewise biased?

And how did that come about, like did the Obama administration send out a letter ordering all of them to never publish any such stories, and they all agreed? and none of the writers every published a complaint about this on the internet, even anonymously?

And how did the government get them to agree, did it tell them if they didn't go along, they would get a bullet in the head from a CIA agent?

And is this ban just for the US, or is it world wide? And when the many experts who are well aware these innumerable Russian renewable energy projects you claim exist complained, what did the editors say? "I'm sorry, but I can't comment on that issue?" And how did the government keep these experts from complaining online, like on their blogs? Did they threaten them too?

For those who would like to counter outrageous comments like ivan_gammel's, note what I am doing, namely working out in some detail the practicalities of what would be needed for the claim to be true. It usually then becomes clear it makes no sense.

Now for the questions, ivan_gammel.

First, when you made your claim, did you first work out the practicalities to see if it made any sense?

Second, now that I have done that, do you see how it sounds like a wacky conspiracy theory?

Finally, do you now agree that the claim doesn't make sense, and that the real reason we see no links at HN about Russian renewable energy projects is there aren't any, or at least very few? or do you still claim there are lots of these projects, and we don't see them here because of media bias?

Oh, and one more thing. The US media claims Putin is pretty awful, and you agree. So how did it come out they got it right on that, but get it all wrong on Russian renewable energy projects?

[ivan_gammel]

Cool story, but I've never been talking about any conspiracy. If something does not appear in media or HN, it does not mean it's not happening. It's just not too sexy to discuss, because there's no way how the imperfect and definitely not exemplary environmental policy of a fading piece of former empire can be interesting to anyone. And its too complicated to explain to readers, why this shadow of grey does matter - it's much easier to paint black and white picture with bad Putin and good "Tolstoevsky". It's hardly normal to write an article criticizing someone without asking for his comment. With your link it's exactly what's happened. It's clearly a bias, but I don't believe in conspiracies and my only explanation is that the topic is uninteresting and journalist is too lazy to get his job properly done. And, unfortunately, this is happening quite often on such dull topics, where media do not do proper fact-checking and align the available information either to black or to white. I don't blame them - readers don't care, but if you care, you have not to rely on single article with a political statement and opinions of few people from opposition.

By the way, for some reason you have chosen about "renewable energy projects", but I've not been mentioning them alone (yes, they exist, but not as big as in many other places in the world and HN is not an industrial news bulletin to mention them). Environmentally friendly industrial policy consists not only of them and energy sector is not the only source of emissions.

[woodandsteel]

"Tolstovesky"?? Never heard of that word, and Google is no help. Perhaps you could explain what it means.

You claim the media is uninterested in energy policy in Russia, but the scientific and technological media is very interested in such things, and HN is read mainly by techno-geeks who are also, and so we have lots and lots of links to articles from such sources.That includes global surveys that include Russia, and tech innovations from countries all over the world. And these stories includes complex nuances and try to be objective. So if anything was actually happening in Russia, you would see it here. But you don't and if this is not due to a conspiracy, then you need to come up with another explanation, and you can't.

As to why I am focusing on renewable energy, it is because you yourself linked to a wikipedia article on that very topic that, as I explain below, says very clearly that very little is going on in that area in Russia.

As to asking for replies, I ask that partly to make sure I have understood you properly.

[ivan_gammel]

"Tolstoevsky" is the new project of Russian artist Dmitry Vrubel, who now lives in Berlin (and created the most famous his work "My God, Help Me to Survive This Deadly Love" on Berlin Wall), based on surnames of Russian writers Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. I've used this word just as a metaphor of slices of Russian culture known and popular on the West - the White part of picture of Russia, that usually consists of bad rulers and good people.

Regarding the media, the lack of news in English is surprising a bit, because I see here and there that something indeed is going on and can confirm it by examples of projects I'm aware of (and likely there are more that I'm not). I can see the simplification bias in general media, which can be explained by lack of interest to post-Soviet Russia (and I've seen publications explaining this with reduced financing of research of Russia in USA - one of the reasons why events in Ukraine were a big surprise for US government). As for scientific and technological media, one of the reasons can be the obscurity of Russian science and inexperience of the government in PR. I cannot find any traces of Buribay solar plant launch in non-Russian or-non solar energy media - how exactly could that happen? I can suggest only that such events and their coverage is not sexy enough for HN/Wired/whatever to be remembered or even discussed. And this project is not small, behind it are very strong businesses like Renova and Rusnano. Can you offer any other explanation beyond "nothing is happening"?

[woodandsteel]

Ok, I now see that there are some positive things going on in Russia, but that is because the last day you finally started posting some links that actually proved it.

I tend to believe negative views of Russia because its government is, overall, so awful, so it would seem to me unlikely it would be doing anything positive in that area. And there is also the matter of the Putin direct quotes on global climate change.

Which leads me to ask you, what is the media in Russia, which says what Putin tells it to say, saying about global climate change nowadays?

[lqdc13]

Climate change benefits Russia though. Why would they want to do something about it?

A lot more land becomes arable. Trade routes don't freeze over as much. Countries with political enemies may get destabilized from immigration.

[ivan_gammel]

Ok, looks like you have no idea about what are you talking about.

First of all, no one cares about "a lot more land becomes arable", because even existing arable land is not fully used - there's already a lot of it, which allowed after transition to market economy after collapse of Soviet Union to increase agricultural production significantly and there are still unused thousands of square kilometers on Far East.

60% of Russian territory is a permafrost zone. Global warming dramatically changes the geology of this area, which has a lot of complications for construction and may severely damage existing infrastructure (including oil and gas pipes). This is well-known and recognized danger here.

Then, immigration. There's already water crisis in Middle Asia, which with population growth and rising Islamism in countries like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan is a huge problem for Russian security. Remember, we have open borders and visa-free travel with them. Plus millions of Chinese guest workers on Far East (and that's even bigger security issue, because on Chinese side of the border situation with ecology is much worse). Immigration is a real concern for Russia itself and any global factors that affect everything are not really useful.

[woodandsteel]

You make some good arguments. The problem is you are assuming that Putin is rational on this topic.

[woodandsteel]

According to a Reuter's article, "Putin told an international climate conference that warmer temperatures would mean Russians "spend less on fur coats" while "agricultural specialists say our grain production will increase, and thank God for that".

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-climatechange-summit-russi...

[ivan_gammel]

He did say that once, but it's not a policy statement apparently.

[woodandsteel]

Are you saying that Putin's true beliefs are quite different, and that he has long believed that anthropogenic climate change is occurring, and it is a threat to Russia? And if so, do you have any evidence from more than a couple years back?

Let me add that Obama has long be quite concerned about GCC, and he has made this quite clear in numerous public speeches for many years. He has done this because he wants the US public and the world to know where he stands.

If Putin was likewise concerned, then you would expect him to make this similarly clear, and it would be easy to come up with quotes over many years on the web.

[woodandsteel]

It fits his actions, and so I assume he really believes it and is acting on it. As I said above, he is an authoritarian leader, and so what the government actually does may be very different than the laws and policies it presents to the public.

[woodandsteel]

Exactly. And if the rest of the world goes to hell in the process, so be it. In fact, Russia has a basically win-lose, zero-sum of international relations, so I am guessing this sort of outcome would make Putin very happy.

[lostlogin]

Any chance of a comment from the down voters? I'd be interested in reading the rebuttal to this comment.

[guard-of-terra]

It's a judging opinion, there's not much to rebute there.

[woodandsteel]

I have a question for you, but first let me say why I think Putin has a win-lose, zero sum of international relations.

To start, Putin grew up and had his career in the old communist Soviet Union, and has made clear he thought it was absolutely wonderful. Now the USSR was a superpower, with 350 million people, the world's second largest economy, a military equal to that of the US, and it controlled Eastern Europe through communist puppet governments.

Then in 1989-91, the Eastern European nations threw out the communist governments and broke away, communism was abandoned, all the non-Russian republics broke away from the USSR, and the military declined drastically. Now Russia has only 145 million people, much less territory, no solid allies except Bylarus, a military about one-fifth the strength of the US, and it's economy is ranked 10th in size.

Putin has made clear that he wants to get back to superpower status, and to do that he has to take back a lot of territory, either through incorporation into Russia or as allies. He can't do that with the Central Asian former Soviet republics, partly because they are semi-allies of China. So he is trying to expand westward, and doesn't care at all that most of the population of the Eastern European nations want to stay aligned with the West.

And to do this he uses various means such as military threats, sending in military forces, trying to undermine democratic governments through supporting extreme left and right wing parties, and a massive internet trolling campaign.

Well, that is my view. What is your view? Where do you think Putin is trying to go in the long term, and what sort of means do you think he uses?

[guard-of-terra]

Disclosure: I'm a Russian nationalist and I'm biased but honest.

Putin had a chance to take most of Ukraine back or at least try to do it. This is late '14, Ukrainians taking hold on separatist "people's republics" of Donetsk and Lugansk. They use artillery against populated areas, lots of civian casualties. The memory of Odessa massacre is still vivid. He has broad support back home to end it all. He has grassroot support in Kharkov and Odessa regions (connect them on the map and see how much of Ukraine is left). He's still holding arguably legitimate Ukrainian president for god's sake!

Ukraine army was still weak and disoriented, he had a chance of dealing a massive blow and overrunning most of the country, and he blew it!

Now, fast forward two years. Can we seriously talk about Putin expanding into Eastern Europe proper if he's unable to take Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine? How he would ever do that? Belarus wipes its feet with Putin, EU sanctions against it are all lifted. Kazakhstan improves ties with China and gets wary of Putin too. In the end he sublimates the inability to tackle Ukraine in his petty TV war in Syria.

Yes, he does use military threats, sending in military forces, trying to undermine democratic governments through supporting extreme left and right wing parties, and a massive internet trolling campaign. No, that won't get him very far, considering he's old and didn't have balls to take a bite at Ukraine. Perhaps he never wanted to. Of course he's bitter about Russia's decline, but he likes his little throne and oligarch friends and doesn't want to risk all that.

Summary: We can only talk about Putin expanding into Eastern Europe when he figures out Ukraine. Not earlier.

[tsukikage]

The Reddit is strong in this thread...