[howandwhy]

it should be written as "Cheap Labor". I can vouch this as I went to graduate school where I worked for 5 years at 8-10 hours/day including Saturday and Sunday for $12,000/year to get a PhD in Biological Science. And it was in one of the most expensive state in US. So could not afford to start a family because of perpetual state of sharing apartment and not enough money and time to go out and find a partner. And at the end I was very delighted to get a post-doc position for $40,000 year at a small town. After working for few years I was burn out due to constant pressure/stress of writing grant to bring money instead of doing real research so ended of quitting science. Now working in a completely different field with much better work-life balance and great salary. Now a days every time I meet an aspirant scientist ready to jump for PhD, I have just one suggestion to them. If you can get into top 2-3 school then go. Else do not waste your time and energy.

[howandwhy]

The fundamental principle about doing science has changed. It has come from becoming a true scientist(born with natural curiosity towards natures, physics, understanding and exploring fundamentals principles of physics, life and matter) to bread butter scientist where you are pigeon holed into a cubicle writing grants all day and tinkering a very narrow part of a huge field to collect as much data possible so that you can put it in your next grant proposal. Oh by the way, do not forget to teach undergrad, grade their papers and sprinkle some tenure pressure, department politics into it and your life as a scientist is complete.

[auxym]

I don't know if you were downvoted because of the cynical tone, but that sounds pretty accurate in my experience. It's why I quit after a master's.

[btdiehr]

Academics spend a lot of time on the internet defending their poor decision of going into academia, as well as anyone who points out how obviously fruitless academia is.

For most people it's nearly impossible to admit something they just dedicated a large portion of their life too was completely worthless.

(standard disclaimer statement that of course there are exceptions to the trend.)

[letitgo12345]

Sure if your only goal is to make money...I am a CS PhD and at least in this area, believe it or not, I really haven't met many academics who regretted their choices.

[Noseshine]

And your statement is something academics have shown empirically :) (I just find it slightly amusing, no point really) I think the most famous instance was that story about the cult whose prediction about the end didn't come true, and they ended up being even more convinced and made up all kinds of excuses instead of quitting (the cult).

[AnallyAnguished]

That's because science was largely a pastime for indepently wealthy members their societies' elites. Science hasn't changed; middle class people just have access to it now.

[estsauver]

My wife went to a #1/#2 school for her field (molecular cell bio.) It certainly didn't seem much better there.

[xapata]

No, but the odds of things turning out the way she intended are just barely good enough at a top school that it might be rational.

[howandwhy]

I agree it may not when compared to a top school for MBA or Computer Science. Still it opens more opportunity such as consulting in Big 3 or your boss has more contacts in pharma industry so there is a chance you will get some entry level opportunity in big pharma or biotech startups. But if you are from a middle tier state univ where you boss do research on "sleeping habit of frog or pink fluffly bunnies" then you are out of luck.

[microtonal]

I can vouch this as I went to graduate school where I worked for 5 years at 8-10 hours/day including Saturday and Sunday for $12,000/year to get a PhD

Well, then don't do your PhD in the US. I did my PhD in the Netherlands, had a reasonable salary and a good work-life balance. I now work as a habilitant in Germany (roughly the equivalent of an assistant professor), it's the same: good salary, good balance.

The primary problem in the Western/Northern European academic environment is getting a permanent position. So, I might end up in industry in the end ;).

[ThePhysicist]

Same experience here: I did my PhD in France at a good research institute (CEA Saclay). The supervision was great as I was one of only three PhD students in a group of ten permanent researchers, so I could work with my supervisors every day. There was also a strong focus to keep within the three-year schedule, and a lot of opportunities to visit conferences and the like.

In addition, a PhD is highly valued by companies in Germany (where I live now), so your higher starting salary usually makes up for the low income during your PhD.

That said, doing a PhD for financial reasons is usually a bad idea. For me, a much better reason is that you can work on a deep (and interesting) problem for 3-5 years, becoming an expert in a given topic and training your gumption, which will help you to tackle difficult problems later in your life, even in unrelated fields. Compared to research work, most projects that you can do in industry are rather boring in comparison (there are exceptions of course). So, if you do a PhD, do it out of curiosity and not because of the title or the hope to make more money later.

[killaken2000]

Are you an American citizen and did you know the language before you went.

I would be interested to know what the process was to move from the US to France for a PhD.

[yodsanklai]

Research labs are very international so as long as you speak English you can do a PhD pretty much anywhere. It's also pretty easy to get a visa for a PhD or a postdoc. As for the process, basically you need to hold a master degree and find a professor/researcher with enough money to hire you. Labs often advertise PhD positions on their websites.

Finding a grant/supervisor is quite easy for a strong candidate. The critical part is too choose wisely the topic. Research tends to be very specialized and you may end up with a PhD that gives you few marketable skills.

[ThePhysicist]

I'm a German citizen, and I learned French in school, my level of proficiency was very low when I arrived though. Getting around using English was quite easy, and the application process was straightforward even with a German Diplom (M.Sc.). For an US degree you'll just have to make a translation and possibly have it's equivalence assessed, that shouldn't be too hard though. The UPMC (Paris VI) has a quite good PhD program for example, and is open to international students.

[howandwhy]

Yea, it is easy when you are single and are from Europe or US. But for somebody like me who has lot of limitation like ailing parents at home, siblings to take care of and immigration issues then it gets difficult to get out of country. And sometimes you do not know that you are in a deep rabit hole unless you are 2-3 years down there. Then you realize you just grind your nose on ground for 2-3 more years and get done with it rather looking for somewhere better to start from 0.

[killaken2000]

Are you an American citizen and did you know the language before you went.

I would be interested to know what the process was to move from the US to the Netherlands for a PhD.

[microtonal]

I am Dutch, but most of my PhD colleagues were from other (primarily European) countries. They typically didn't know Dutch. Some decided to do Dutch courses, others managed fine sticking with English.

Many European research groups use English as their main language for communication. Also, outside academia many people in Western European countries and Scandinavia are proficient enough in English to communicate with. (Though in my personal experience, English proficiency in Germany is quite bad compared to e.g. The Netherlands or Denmark.)

[dragandj]

Most PhDs in Netherlands accept English speakers, and they all have many international students. When you find a position advertized, you can ask them about the procedure for non-EU citizens.

[semi-extrinsic]

This is also true for Scandinavian countries (and trivially true for the UK). I would guess most of Europe, really. But you probably need to learn a small bit of the local language just to shop for groceries etc.

The country I would be most hesitant about is France, they really don't like speaking English, and most French PhD theses are still written in French. This is really idiotic, all it does is slow down the dissemination of research; some acquaintances who did their PhD in France were looking hard for a non-French external examiner of their PhD, which is the easiest loophole if you want to write the thesis in English.

[yodsanklai]

> The country I would be most hesitant about is France, they really don't like speaking English

I believe it's a stereotype and it's certainly not the case in CS research labs. I did my PhD in a French research institution (INRIA). In my group, a majority of the people didn't speak French. And of course, PhD students could write and defend their thesis in English if they wanted to (I don't know if they had to find a non-French external examiner, but it's likely to be the case that some examiners are foreign anyway).

[dragandj]

This is only partly true, but even then, I wouldn't it call it idiotic. After all, can you defend your thesis in the US in French? You can't. So, why would it be idiotic for the French to expect theses at their unis to be defended in French, which is btw also an international language? It is not very pragmatic, for sure, but it has sense.

[microtonal]

After all, can you defend your thesis in the US in French? You can't. So, why would it be idiotic for the French to expect theses at their unis to be defended in French

Because English is the lingua franca of most academic fields? If you are publishing in English conference proceedings and journals, isn't it reasonable to write your thesis in English as well?

(Note that English is the default language of theses in many European countries.)

[collyw]

The last academic institute I worked for (in Spain) was started by people from a French institute. Mix of nationalities and they all spoke English well.