[spriggan3]

> the Eurosceptics have undermined at every opportunity

The Eurosceptics don't want a political union for good reasons. It would devolve into a soviet style dictatorship. People that different just can't live under the same government. Europe is not USA. The Eurosceptics are the ones that are grounded in reality here, the other camp is trying to push an utopia that already had horrible consequences.

[madaxe_again]

1) EU

2) ....?

3) Soviet union!

There's a gap somewhere in your logic.

Europe is far more likely to end up a set of Soviet vassal states if it disintegrates, as that big hegemonic power called Russia is still very much a thing.

[zigzigzag]

The EU and latter day Soviet Union share more similarities than people would like to admit.

The EU tries to prevent countries breaking away from its dictats using economic war as a threat (i.e. you obey us or we stop trading with you), rather than "hot war" - at present. But elements of the EU are pushing to get its own army, and the EU already has a system in place to effectively eliminate or take over governments that are deemed to not be reflecting EU "values":

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/24/eu-vows-use-new-p...

Fast forward 20 years and you get zealots like Juncker who already want to "punish" countries where voters disagree with him, put them in charge of their own army with a puppet parliament, and presto - the USSR is back.

[sevenless]

But these attributes are true of all states. There is no unclaimed land on earth that new states can claim, so state formation necessarily destroys existing states. It's impossible to form new states without force, just as much today as it was in 1776. This doesn't make new states bad.

[spriggan3]

There is absolutely no gap in my logic. Tyrannies are often born from virtuous ideas and well intended people. The problem with concentration of power is that the people holding that power only care about insuring their own survival, not the good of the people they govern.

This is already true at the national level and even more true at the supra-national level in EU. I don't want to give more power to corrupt bureaucrates that are completely disconnected from national concerns.

[witty_username]

India (1.2 B population) has tons of languages and states and is a democracy (each state has more population than many European countries).

[sevenless]

India isn't a particularly good argument for democracy. It might be an argument against it.