[mhurron]

> because of the high divorce rate (is it increasing?)

Falling. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-i...

The divorce rate increased for the same reason it isn't now, swaths of social pressures that 'forced' people into getting married young, having kids and raising a family are either going away or simply ignored by more and more people. That these pressures are changing and divorce doesn't have the same stigma are good things.

> a pre-nup sounds like a romance killer

A pre-nup is dealing with the parts of marriage that have nothing to do with romance. If you're going into a marriage thinking it's nothing but romance, wine and roses, you may be in for a rude awakening.

[krinchan]

My partner and I signed a pre-nup. I'd rate our chances of divorce at like...less than 5%. We've both been through a ton of crap together and we are totally committed to making our relationship last.

The point is, we've both seen couples in our circles go from that to absolutely messy divorces. We simply decided that in the rare chance we don't work out, we'd have laid down the rules of separation while we still loved each other. While it certainly wasn't romantic, it didn't kill the romance.

Working out the pre-nup allowed us to really consider how harmful separation would be for both of us on an emotional level. That led to us trying to make the rules for separation as clear as possible. If anything, it strengthened our relationship.

It helps if neither party is interested in "If he/she/they cheats I get double" sorts of clauses and instead are interested in a clear, fair split regardless of the circumstances.

[jwdunne]

That is an incredibly interesting perspective - enough to step back and think through my stance.

Perhaps my view of this kind of agreement is tarnished by the stereotypical type (you mention it with "if you cheat then x" or how someone with a lot of wealth would aim to protect that when marrying on short notice).

Thank you!

[jwdunne]

Thanks for that. Very interesting and indeed a good thing.

A marriage has everything to do with romance in terms of the kind of relationship we're talking about: a romantic relationship.

Personally, I haven't made my perspective clear in my original comment. Me and my partner have lived together for some time, we have kids and our own home. I definitely don't expect a bed of roses after marriage. In fact, after the experience, it would be pretty damn foolish to expect that from a day to remember, a legal document, a few things and nice holiday.

Despite that, I still fail to see how I, myself, could serve my partner with a pre-nup after knowing, by this time, she is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with.

My opinion is perhaps related to your first paragraph in that I have 0 pressure to get married and I have hafthe luxury of giving myself the best part of a decade to make that decision. That is why in my case I wouldn't serve a pre-nup - it would pretty much say "hey were getting married after a decade of commitment and realisation we want to spend our lives together but I still don't fully believe we will so best sign this just in case". That doesn't really show commitment to me.

To conclude, I would absolutely get a pre nup if the relationship was quite new but then again I wouldn't get married like that so hastily.

To me, marriage is the highest honour you can bestow on someone. You are in effect both saying "yes I honour this person so damn much, I want us to join families". That's a major thing and it actually kinda hurts to see some people treat marriage in a way that decreases its great significance.

[mhurron]

> A marriage has everything to do with romance in terms of the kind of relationship we're talking about: a romantic relationship.

Not legally it doesn't and that is where a pre-nup is involved. A pre-nup is related to all the contract law around the legal institution of marriage. The law doesn't care about how much you love each other. You could marry someone to set explicit inheritance rights, absolutely hate the other person and it is still a legal marriage.

[jwdunne]

Except that the point of marriage is closer union with someone you intend to spend the rest of your life with. I am talking specifically about this kind of marriage.

I'm not saying people don't marry for reasons other than lifetime union. I'm pretty certain I would have a prenup drawn up in the situations you give as examples. My point is that I would not treat marriage that way because it is an honour that you bestow only on the person you intend to marry.

Perhaps i'm getting confused too. I'm talking about serving what is in effect a contingency plan wrt division of assets in the event of divorce. If that is the case, I still stand by what I say in that if you feel this is necessary, perhaps you need to give it more time instead of jumping into what is the highest honour two people can bestow on each other.

[mhurron]

If you want to regard marrying someone as 'bestowing upon them the highest honour you can' you can feel feel free to be that full of yourself. If you want to pretend there is nothing going on but romance, you can pretend that.

Legally there is no marriage until you sign that contract at which point you are in a partnership that is covered by many, many laws because it is a legal construct, pre-nups being just one. If you can not recognize this and you go into a marriage thinking of nothing but romance, you are going into it blind and delusional.

> Except that the point of marriage is closer union with someone you intend to spend the rest of your life with

That's actually a pretty new development. You married to stop wars, you married to care for your house, you married to have kids and have someone care for them, you married to carry of the family business.

[jwdunne]

Excuse me but was that called for? Honouring somebody is not being full of yourself. Its exactly that: honouring somebody. How is it not your biggest honour? You essentially say you love soneone that much you want to share the rest of your life with someone in the closest way possible. I think you are being just a little bit offensive and a touch unfair.

I'm sorry but what part of being in a committed relationship for the best part of a decade do you not understand? I am well aware what a marriage is legally. If you want to view marriage purely as a legal instrument, that's fine by me. To me, a marriage is, through means of law, making official a commitment I already experience. It would NOT change my day to day whatsoever and is purely a piece of paper that lays out how my long term relationship currently works anyway.

A marriage is a romantic event. It is not purely a romantic event but it is none the less. I place value in that but I also place value in the legal document that comes from it. By law, that document cements the way we have lived our lives for many years. Im not actually sure where I said it wasn't a legal contract?

As I said, I have been in a committed relationship for a long time. We have lived together and had children together. A marriage would not change that at all. Im not sure why that makes me blind or delusional? It certainly doesn't warrant the insult in any case.

That sounds very upper class and feudal in respect too. I am from a working class background and from peasantry before it. I doubt my ancestors would have been able to stop a war or continue a family business by marriage. Regardless I am not going down that rabbit hole only to be insulted.

[TeMPOraL]

I think the whole point here is that marriage today has many aspects, and the legal aspect is completely orthogonal to the romantic aspect. One should be aware of both. If you want to bestow great depths of meaning on it, it's ok - a marriage like you describe is indeed a profound moment for the two people involved. If you consider this as the essence of marriage, fine - but the legal layer exists independently. By law and custom, it's attached to the union of two people. It may not define the interpersonal meaning of marriage, but it defines its meaning for the rest of society. It doesn't diminish anything, and there's no point in ignoring it.