Ask HN: Advice request for startup, Nootropics.com

[Nooance]

At the start of this month we launched Nootropics.com, which is a nootropics vendor. The initial promotion went relatively well: I posted in various facebook groups, a large mailing list I’m part of, and on r/nootropics. (Reddit went… very typically for reddit :) There’s less of an ethos of constructive comments there than here on HN, and we tend to be more expensive than known vendors, so the responses were mixed. Still though, we got some useful feedback, and I think I didn’t handle things too terribly.)

After that we’ve sort of hit a rut though. I’m personally engaging on reddit, on our facebook page, and on facebook pages of companies that would attract people that might be in our market – but that’s slow going. We’re 4th in the search results for “nootropics”… on Bing. On Google we’re still around page 4, if that. We’re trying to reach out through our networks to get backlinks as well as exposure, we’re running some targeted Facebook ads, and we’re working on articles that would be interesting to the general public, that would organically also include information about nootropics. (For example: I recently made a reddit post on motivation that got gilded twice, I intend to turn that into a full blog post to share on places like r/motivation or Lifehacker.)

But it all seems a little slow-going, and it’s unclear how much impact it’s going to have. Are we missing something obvious? Are there better things we could be doing? We’re at the point where we’re considering looking for a second investment round, just to get the funds for a bigger push – but even that seems uncertain if it’s a good idea or not.

Sooo… let me know what you think? Feedback not about the marketing situation is also welcome! I'll put some background about the space, our approach, and about nootropics in general in the comments.

[johnwheeler]

My thoughts on nootropics are they're at best bullshit and at worst reckless. I might be ill-advised, but you're selling chemicals, unregulated, so it's reminiscent of snake-oil, and I think most smart people feel the same. It's a barrier to entry to overcome in addition to the competition you mention.

It's not lost on me this post "asking for help" is in itself a growth hack. That's fine - it's what we're coming to nowadays but coupled with the unregulated chemicals it appears extra disingenuous.

I'd like to see testimonials from people I trust and admire benefitting from nootropics. You know, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos. They're all pretty consistent on how they got where they are: education, hard work, focus, and luck, but there's no mention of nootropics. If nootropics are effective, why aren't more credible people touting their use?

[Nooance]

I won't deny that being on HN gives publicity — but the request for advice is genuine. There's a lot of knowledge and experience in this community, and a much higher degree of civility and helpfulness than most places on the internet.

As for prominent people using nootropics:

Astronauts on the ISS use Modafinil and Melatonin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_medicine

There's some indication that President Obama might be using Modafinil, but the evidence is a little thin. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/03/04/the-white-h...

Dave Asprey, from the bulletproof executive uses Modafinil. https://www.bulletproofexec.com/why-you-are-suffering-from-a...

Tim Ferris from the four hour workweek uses racetams/choline. (Can dig up a source if you're interested)

Soylent's new Coffiest contains the classic Caffeine+L-Theanine combination.

Peter Thiel takes human growth hormone — although more for longevity than nootropic effect. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-18/investor-p...

As for why not more smart people tout their use: why would they tell the world? There's no value in it to them, and there's a lot of stigma around using "chemicals" when someone isn't ill.

[Houshalter]

Not to mention countless people that use Caffeine. I know of a number of smart people that use stimulants like Adderall but they probably aren't publicly open about it.

[johnwheeler]

Ridiculous is the culture that advocates taking Adderall to get ahead. You should encourage these smart people to stop doing stupid things.

[Houshalter]

Well a large number of people have ADHD or are close to having it. Certainly it benefits those people. The benefits for the average person may not outweigh the downsides, but that's up to them to determine. I've also heard lots of people use modafinil which I think is similar.

It's not stupid or ridiculous. If a drug benefits a person then what's the problem? Certainly improving focus or intelligence is a much nobler act than people who do drugs for fun. A pervasive and semi-legal part of our culture.

[johnwheeler]

That's a libratarian-type POV I can respect but don't agree with (as far as using prescription drugs illegally). It would be a separate issue to discuss.

But a culture that's accepting of drug use for enhanced cognition is stupid (reckless is a better word). It'd be no different than performance enhancing drugs in sports. You've got a situation there where people feel uncompetitive without drugs. You don't want that in the workplace.

[Nooance]

Hmm, it's mixed. Yes, a culture that would force people to take Adderall would be bad (what about Caffeine though?). But there's nothing inherently wrong with giving people the tools that let them choose their own mindstate. If I want to focus, but it's not working, why would it be a problem to take something that helps you focus? How is it different from practicing meditation, or wearing noise-cancelling headphones, ceteris paribus?

And yeah, it might very well be that ceteris non paribus, but that's case-specific, and doesn't mean that giving people tools and options stops being good.

[crazypyro]

I found the reddit thread. They gave you a lot of good feedback. I think its ridiculous to dismiss it as "very typically for reddit" when the reasons it went so poorly are extremely relevant to your business...

When you are 2-3x more expensive than a very similar competitor, all the fancy marketing and URL won't sell (much of) your product. The community also gave you marketing advice and suggested you removed phrases that would get you in legal trouble with the FDA. The community also informed you that your closest competitors already have significant partnerships with manufacturers.

[Nooance]

My bad, by saying "very typically for reddit", I didn't mean to dismiss it, but rather that it was a mix of useful advice/feedback/helpful critique, and… unhelpful critique.

I've tried acting on the feedback to the degree possible since then (such as adding a disclaimer), but most of it seems to be around the price. I'm still not quite convinced that a webshop at this price point is unviable though; as far as I can tell there is space for a vendor with clear information and product guidelines – and that that would be worth a markup. Would you say you'd disagree? Or perhaps that you partially agree, but that the markup is still too high?

[Nooance]

As some background: The nootropics space is pretty hard to get into for new people. Since most vendors don’t really have clear information on what to expect, and because nootropics tend to affect people differently, it’s difficult to figure out where to start. We’re trying to focus on clarity by having clear product guidelines for every product, an elaborate introduction to nootropics, and a search/filtering system on the shop page that allows you . There’s space for improvement on this front too: On the roadmap are including an information leaflet with your order, getting superscript references on the product pages,* and offering a “nootropics sample basket” so you can try what works for you. But that didn’t seem quite as MVP.

* We have references under Further Info, but people seem to keep missing them.

Additionally, we try to focus on quality. Both in raw product, but also in presentation/design/“quality-feel”. We’ve gotten positive responses to the design of our site, boxes, and jars, and we’re aiming for people to be proud of displaying them, instead of storing a sachet in a drawer somewhere. Something that would look good as a gift.

As a further background: Nootropics are typically defined as “cognitive enhancers” or “study drugs”; things that help you focus, improve your memory, help with motivation, etc. For me nootropics has a definition that’s a little broader: Any supplement that gives you more control over your own mindstate. For example, Tianeptine might not increase your focus, but it does allow you to mitigate a bad feeling a little bit. Phenibut can help you with social anxiety. And sure, Adrafinil increases your focus and energy.

[auganov]

Well at the end of the day you are trying to resell a commodity at a rather high multiple. Your intention of just providing clean and honest information is somewhat conflicting? Even if someone does place their first nootropic order with you, what would keep them ordering from you?

You need to convince people that there's a good reason to order from you (or to not order from others!). Which inevitably will involve some deceptive marketing.

[Nooance]

Hmm, not sure if I entirely agree with you? Providing clear information is in itself valuable — not to everyone, but to some for sure. But also apart from that people tend to stick with what they know. If they've had a successful order from us, then switching to a different vendor would come with more uncertainty.

There's also value in having a good looking product, and value in having a place where you can comfortably send your friends without worrying that they'll buy something dangerous without knowing how it works...

These aren't universal values, some people won't be willing to pay a premium for them. But that doesn't mean that we need to be deceptive in our marketing.

[FreakLegion]

You're assuming nootropics consumers follow the same patterns as consumers generally, which, given the nature of the product, I suspect is not the case.

In theory you're trying to sell to someone like me. I use several nootropics regularly (Noopept, modafinil, sulbutiamine, melatonin, lemon balm, caffeine+L), and have in the past tried many others.

If you had a small markup, sure, I'd consider you. But you're selling 1.8 grams of Noopept for $29 when Powder City has 25 grams for $27.35 (caps vs. powder doesn't remotely justify this). Sorry, ain't happening.

Side note:

> value in having a place where you can comfortably send your friends without worrying that they'll buy something dangerous without knowing how it works...

There seems to be a fair bit of inaccurate information and bad advice, actually. I saw some posted on reddit, and when looking at the Noopept page on your site also noticed the guideline of 30mg up to three times per day, which is quite high.

Who at your company is qualified to explain product chemistry or make dosage recommendations?

[auganov]

Of course, information is valuable. That doesn't mean I will forever be loyal to you for providing it. If your site is beautiful, information good, packaging pretty, shipping reasonable, reputation great - sure I'll pay a small premium

But you're charging a 2-3x premium and using generic names with no handwaving. If I put any of these into google I get much better deals from sites that are as reputable. What demographic pays 70$ for something that shows up for 30$ as the top result[0]? And what kind of a friend recommends that?

Now if you made a Nootropics.com Cogniboost with 5-10 different nootropics then maybe there's going to be some lock-in.

I don't know how you're expecting to sell a rather expensive commodity at a 3x premium with no marketing magic.

[0] if we were talking about something in the 0-10$ range it's perhaps possible to make people severely overpay.

[allanmacgregor]

Other than the many issues that other people have posted in this thread and reddit.com here are my 2 cents.

You need a clear differentiator especially if you want to justify the high markup that your products have. Right now, the business model seems to capitalize on the domain name and target new users that are unaware of the average price of the nootropics on sites like ceretropic.com, powdercity.com or nootropicsdepot.com

All of them have unique differentiators be it price, quality or unique variants of the products. I don't see anything worth paying a premium on your site.

By your admission you are essentially using ceretropic labs as a drop shipper; so is the same product and the same quality with a higher markup.

Why should I give you my money? And before you answer with `we don't care if you buy from ceretropic.com or powdercity.com they are good guys.` Stop and think you are starting a business, and you should have a clear answer for that if not then you are wasting your time, money and energy; setting yourself for failure.

[Nooance]

I'd say our differentiator is clear information, guidance, and trustworthiness. (for the latter Jamesbeam had some strong but fair critique, so we need to work on that.)

And yeah, having those as differentiators won't be of value to long-term nootropics users, but it could be to new users. There's also value in having a product that looks good. (Honestly do let me know if you disagree with this paragraph, I'd like to test and verify my beliefs in this area)

Trying to compete with ceretropic on quality or customer service seems pointless: they're seen as perfect. It's hard to beat that — partnering with them like this seems like a much better plan. So yeah, I agree that we need a differentiator, but I feel that we do have one?

[replax]

I've read your reddit threat and this one now and I'd like to let you know my somewhat knee jerk opinion. You say that you need a differentiator but that you feel you have one. For one, i think that if information is indeed your only differtiator (nd's jars look good enough) then nootropics might be the wrong market. most people getting into nootropics do so because they have already read a lot and tend to be better informed, thus degrading that differentiator significantly. People who dont know much about nootropics will be hesitant to try them at such high prices and even if they do once, you won't necessarily get repeat businesses out of them.

the venture you are starting should be validated with a good study beforehand as you are essentially trying to sell information repeatedly to folks who know googleing well. As you can see with amazon, which is in a business similar to yours, customers care most about price and then about convenience and security (refunds etc). the information amazon provides about the products they sell is shit at best and the website does not look good either. furthermore, nootropics cannot be tried easily and then be refunded, as many need eg two weeks of consistent use to be able to feel a difference.

in my opinion, approach your businesses not as a startup but rather as a shop would. define the customers, their needs, do interviews and then decide if it is worth getting into

[Nooance]

* nod * I see what you're getting at. We do have a "nootropics sampler pack" on the road map, which would make things more accessible to new users, but that doesn't address all concerns you mention.

As for Amazon... I'd think they're closer to Powder City? The focus on low cost seems to match, anyway. I'm not sure if the your model of priorities of customers applies to literally everyone — we're not trying to capture the entire nootropics market at this point, as that would seem doomed to fail.

Your final advice sounds very much like the lean startup approach — and I will readily admit that we've not been very lean, and that a lean approach would have been better. But yeah, better to gather info now than not at all.

[Jamesbeam]

You asked for honest feedback and here is mine.

First of all your website Nootropics.com I get a few red flags right away from the first visit.

Your website is hidden behind a whois guard protection in Panama. There is not much information about who you are and what kind of legal status your company has on the website.

Hiding information about your company from the public eye when the customers trust is the only reason to buy a product that has potential to damage the customer's health long-term from you is not the best decision to build trust.

The first google hit on your address 2885 Sanford Ave SW #36283 Grandville, MI 49418 gives me a link to a report titled:

"Kleargear fracas: BBB investigating now-infamous online retailer with Grandville address."

Source: http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2013/1... This is not good for your image and building trust. That's the bad thing with Mailbox forwarding, if someone else did shady business on the same mailing address you use, people will automatically distrust you.

Doing some search engine magic tells me that your strategy guy dropped out of a Ph.D. in cognitive neuroscience. This can mean two things; he either was not good enough to finish or to open a nootropics company was his lifelong dream.

Either way, it shows that he chooses risk over stability.

Now as a customer or investor I have to ask myself if he does the same with any other decisions related to your newfound business how much trust can I put in the safety and quality of your products.

Another thing is false advertisement directly on the main page. You state that your products are "Safe and secure."

There is no way you can guarantee this, and you know that. There are no long-term studies on the safety of many of the products you sell and they are not FDA approved for a reason.

But just to mention a single example, let us see how that works for the first product I can see on your website. Adrafinil.

Adrafinil is not only not regulated or approved by the FDA, the FDA sent out an Import Alert on 08/05/2016 that also includes Adrafinil capsules from a certain Chinese manufacturer because FDA field investigations and laboratory analyses have concluded that a number of imported products marketed as dietary supplements that are often promoted for sexual enhancement, weight loss, muscle building, lifestyle, and other claims, contain undeclared active pharmaceutical ingredients.

Because of problems like this the "Further Information" including your certificate of Authenticity needs to be more prominent. I'd also include the test results for any subsequent batch. I am not sure if you are still selling the same batch PD: 3/1/2016 ED: 3/1/2018. But you should do that for any batch you sell.

"We provide only the best-supported compounds, alongside third-party testing and complete transparency" should be the main argument why I would shop at Nootropics.com over your competitors. It's no use to hide this information from the customer in menus somewhere at the end of the product description.

As said in the beginning, the people who buy your products will most likely value effect and trustworthiness the most. If you are more expensive there needs to be a reason for customers to pay a premium over your competitors. But if I take twenty minutes of time to do a quick background check and conclude that your company looks "shady" then a lot of your customers will probably get the same impression.

You need to fix that. Any investor will eat you alive over stuff like this.

P.S: Edited out some personal stuff before someone cries doxing

[Nooance]

Thanks, valuable feedback.

I see what you mean with the red flags. I wasn't aware that of the association with the mailbox forwarder, that's kind of unfortunate.

As for the PhD, that's inferring a little much; it could be that he judged Nootropics.com to have a higher expected positive impact on the world. But again, yeah, I see how that would increase a customer's worries.

We're indeed still selling that batch. I'm on two minds about displaying the COA more prominently; on the one hand frequent nootropics users would be looking for it, but on the other hand, New users might find it odd? But you're the second person with this feedback, so I think I should just update.

[qaq]

a scientific blind study of "nootropics" vs coffee with sugar would be interesting :). Even more interesting would be FDA approval.

[Nooance]

"Nootropics" is too broad, really. There's different ones with different effects. But since you mention coffee, I'd assume you're thinking about Adrafinil/Modafinil, or perhaps racetams.

Here's a study of Modafinil vs Coffee, for example. It's pretty old and has a low N, but I just mean to show that such research does exist. http://www.gwern.net/docs/modafinil/1993-warot.pdf

FDA approval, yeah that would be nice. Unfortunately there's very little public acceptance of the idea that you can take things to improve yourself even if you're already healthy. That being said, L-Theanine and Melatonin are FDA-approved.

[street]

What's your strategy? Why do you consider yourself a "startup", as opposed to just being a webshop selling pills?

[wrbishop]

You're selling Aniracetam for $.86/gm; I'm buying it from other sites for $.19/gm (bulk powder).

[DavidSoames]

Others have noted some of the main issues with your website, including high markups, lack of a clear differentiator, and misleading advertisement. An additional reason concerns the manner in which nootropics.com was acquired. My understanding is that nootropics.com belongs to David Pearce, a former friend of the people involved in this project, and that Pearce never signed a contract, doesn’t authorize the use of his domain for a commercial purpose, hasn’t been paid any money for the domain, and transferred the domain to you only because he was misled and emotionally pressured. This story has been independently confirmed to me by three people all of whom I highly trust and who are partial to neither side. Since the allegations are serious and relevant, I thought I should mention them here.