[xorblurb]

Successful big waterfall engineering projects where waterfall is actually applied exist. Want to construct a bridge or a rocket, design a microprocessor? You are not going to do that with "stories".

It remains to be seen if big Scrum engineering projects where Scrum is actually applied even exist. I can't even think about one on the top of my head. I'm not even sure Scrum is that well defined for us to be able to judge if is correctly applied or not. And it's yet another story to judge if they are successful or not.

In the end it does not matter much. The theoretical vision that nobody ever uses has almost no interest if you are concerned with real world efficiencies.

[dragonwriter]

> Successful big waterfall engineering projects where waterfall is actually applied exist.

You are engaging in equivocation.

> Want to construct a bridge or a rocket, design a microprocessor? You are not going to do that with "stories".

Nor are you going to use the software development methodology described as the waterfall method (you may use a physical engineering methodology that was among the inspirations for that software development methodology, but those are distinctly different things, with different specific practices, and different domains.)

> I'm not even sure Scrum is that well defined for us to be able to judge if is correctly applied or not.

Scrum is exquisitely well-defined, both as to what it involves, what it specifically excludes, and what it is neutral to, in the Scrum Guide. (There's lots of confusion between Agile, a broad approach which is not a specific methodology, and Scrum, a very-specifically-defined -- though by itself fairly incomplete, in that any implementation of Scrum needs lots of decisions on the things to which Scrum is neutral -- methodology.)

[xorblurb]

Ok I maybe went a little far for the bridge, but today a microprocessor is way more similar to software than it is to a bridge (at least in some of the design phase, but then now even in some maintenance phases). And a modern rocket also contains tons of software. And waterfall is similar enough to (at least non-software -- but in my thesis also software) engineering to even consider a direct equivalent for the bridge. Only, quite like a description of a method is often not enough to see how it is properly used, the mythical "waterfall" where a phase begins after the other one, strictly, never happens, and there are all kind of loopbacks -- even for the bridge -- and obviously if you try to remove loopback things will get fucked-up, but why would you try to do that? Now in real world conversations, waterfall is used to designate software being developed with proper general engineering practices.

Scrum origin is partly in manufacturing. Now there are some common points between some aspects of software dev and manufacturing, especially more so if the software being developed can be iterated very quickly (but very few if it's not the case), but at least in the real world (and maybe even in the theory) Scrum is what is also actually mainly used to interact with other stakeholders. And given how the communication is performed, and its content, that might be better than complete chaos when nobody is actually able to do the work they are supposed to do (PM being limited to having vague ideas, lack of a truly competent tech lead doing actual tech lead work, lack of vision by management, and so over) and only very vague general ideas of what should do the software -- or more generally the whole product -- are ever emitted.

As soon as "serious" stuff starts to be involved, you need real boring engineering, with functional analysis, requirement engineering, modeling, systematic testing or even partial proofs, etc. And you need to have it structuring communication between teams, and day to day work. And then, I don't expect Scrum or anything Agile in such a context adding any kind of value.

Now the theory of Agile and Scrum has evolved because of criticisms to a point where we are told that it actually do not cover the things that matter. That is bullshit retro-justification, now that the world is fucked up trying to make sense how to use that. Here is the Agile manifesto:

> We are uncovering better ways of developing software by doing it and helping others do it. Through this work we have come to value:

> Individuals and interactions over processes and tools

> Working software over comprehensive documentation

> Customer collaboration over contract negotiation

> Responding to change over following a plan

> That is, while there is value in the items on the right, we value the items on the left more.

Engineering is mainly about "processes and tools", of course "individuals and interactions" are also needed, but there is no need to oppose them (although I am not sure what is the point of "individuals" here; the authors might as well said "oh and by the way be nice")

"comprehensive documentation" is critical in all kind of domains, and now that software is everywhere it just makes no sense to declare your "preference" of "working software" above "comprehensive documentation". It is, again, even dangerous to oppose them.

Customer collaboration over contract negotiation; again, highly dependent on the field and specific project if this is something where it makes sense to even have a "preference" or not.

"Following a plan" is what you do about how you organize your work when you use Scrum. There is no problem in studying the impact of a change any time if proper engineering practices are used. Obviously, the cost can vary depending on various factors.

My conclusion about Agile and Scrum, is that if you prefer all of that (4 Agile preferences, and the Scrum theater), you should seek projects that are suitable for the Agile preferences, and so poorly defined that Scrum is a plus. On my side, I'm just not seeking to work on chaotic projects -- on the contrary I try to bring logical and more systematic practice where I feel that chaos reigns -- and I'm neutral about Agile preferences, I prefer to choose projects on other criteria (mostly; intrinsical interest)

[dragonwriter]

> Engineering is mainly about "processes and tools"

And Agile does not avoid processes and tools, it recognizes that process and tools must be specifically fit to the particular team and context of work (Scrum, particularly, is a baseline set of processes and tools that is designed to serve as a framework for common contexts of software work -- its intentionally incomplete to avoid specifying too much that would narrow its scope of applicability.)

> "individuals and interactions" are also needed, but there is no need to oppose them

The need to oppose them comes from the authors' concrete experiences in the software world before writing the manifesto, where very frequently canned (often consultant-pushed) processes and tools were being adopted by management in shops without considering the dynamics of the existing team and the particular work being done. (One of the sad ironies of the Agile movement is that the "Agile" banner itself has become a tool for the same kind of thing.)

> "comprehensive documentation" is critical in all kind of domains

Yes, it is; the preference stated in the manifesto is, again, the result of concrete experience where projects were quite often focused on producing mandated documentary artifacts because there was a checklist and that was how "control" was exercised, but the documents required and delivered were often irrelevant to (and not consumed by, or updated to reflect changes resulting from, the process of) delivering working software.

> Customer collaboration over contract negotiation; again, highly dependent on the field and specific project if this is something where it makes sense to even have a "preference" or not.

This is intended specifically in the content of developing specific software requirements (and, really, its more about the dev team pushing the customer to engage rather than provide hands-off requirements.)

The Agile Manifesto really deals with concrete problems encountered in particularly enterprise software contracting (but bad practices from the enterprise world were, at the time, getting exported to the rest of software development, so not limited to the enterprise world.)

> "Following a plan" is what you do about how you organize your work when you use Scrum.

Scrum, like most methodologies that attempt to implement agile values, focuses quite a lot on managing potential rapid change within the plan.

[xorblurb]

Well, I've got "concrete experiences" in the software world after the manifesto, where this has been interpreted has fuck processes and fuck tools (except those of Scrum, regardless of their applicability -- which is not the majority of projects, far from it) and let idiotic work continue to be done, now that we have a noun for it. This is not better than the previous situation. Honestly if some management is stupid enough to force badly suited processes and tools instead of letting (competent) teams choose better ones, I doubt they will suddenly see the light by reading the Agile manifesto. And again, in too many actual implementations, Working software is not really an output of Agile processes... except now you don't even have a doc anymore. Actually, to get non trivial "Working software", a good documentation is essential. You don't solve anything by casting that you prefer "Working software", especially more so when you are trying to fix a situation where the documentation is mandatory but poor. And guess what, the "client" also want "Working software"...

Scrum is what you do when you try to do software engineering without actually doing software engineering. It insanely meta, and like explained in other comments, the improvements you get from its loop are too often meta (we should evaluate more accurately). I prefer to stick to the real thing, and core engineering practices. Scrum attempts to fix situation when core engineering practices are misunderstood and used as constraints instead of being used as something essential to the dev of a good product; but it is vain to try to fix such a situation by engaging key people even less in core engineering practices, and more in mundane discussions where the real problems are never addressed.

[dragonwriter]

> Well, I've got "concrete experiences" in the software world after the manifesto, where this has been interpreted has fuck processes and fuck tools

Oh, yeah, that's definitely a problem. I don't think the Agile Manifesto is bad at all, but I think that, ironically, in application it suffers from the same problem it sought to address -- people are looking for simple answers that can be applied without deep knowledge of context. The Agile Manifesto and Agile software movement was itself a strong reaction against that, but unfortunately it (and tools from within that movement, like Scrum) get applied by exactly the same process that the Manifesto was a reaction against (focusing on particular ways it had manifested, prior to the Manifesto, in software development.)

> Honestly if some management is stupid enough to force badly suited processes and tools instead of letting (competent) teams choose better ones, I doubt they will suddenly see the light by reading the Agile manifesto.

Absolutely; the real audience of the Agile Manifesto is software development practitioners that have influence with management, and its not really "new knowledge" as a concrete distillation of experience. The fundamental problem, I think, with Agile isn't that its ideas are bad, its that the real problem it deals with isn't a problem of process/tools, or even the meta-level approach to processes and tools, but a problem with institutional organization and leadership of large entities that happen to be doing software projects, and how that manifests in software projects.

The agile movement has produced some new tools that can be applied effectively in, largely, the areas that didn't really have the worst cases of the problems that motivated the movement -- because its helped motivate and inspire a lot of efforts by people with decent engineering backgrounds at finding new ways of working.

But the kinds of organizations that were worst afflicted by the problems that the Manifesto set out to address are still the most afflicted by those problems, and what they've gotten out of it is a lot of new processes and tools that consultants will sell them, their management will blindly adopt without understanding the conditions which makes them useful, and thus they find all kinds of new ways to fail.

> Scrum is what you do when you try to do software engineering without actually doing software engineering.

Scrum is largely orthogonal to software engineering (presumably, people using scrum in a software project will be doing software engineering within Scrum, but Scrum is not about software engineering.)

> It insanely meta, and like explained in other comments, the improvements you get from its loop are too often meta (we should evaluate more accurately).

Scrum is designed to be very meta, true. And, yes, if you mistake Scrum for a complete process rather than a process framework, you aren't going to get much out of it beyond omphaloskepsis. (I'm actually not convinced that Scrum is particularly valuable, even as a framework, as anything more than a well-known starting point to develop an appropriate, context-specific work model.)