[drzaiusapelord]

Its crazy how the liberal media is anti-Erdogan for understandable reasons (not being a Euro-style liberal), but the Gulen movement is a straight up theocracy. Erdogan has a religiosity of a George Bush. Gulen wants to be like the Iranian Ayotollah but seen as a living prophet as well.

I think liberals and the liberal media are picking sides here, and they shouldn't be. Erdogan's vision of Turkey is far more secular and liberal than what the Gulenist movement wants. Turkey seems in better hands with the current leadership, which wins elections and is a strong NATO partner, compared building another middle-east theocracy. Like most politics, its a case of the lesser evil. I'm not exactly sure what liberals think is possible in Turkey, but migrating to a UK or French level of liberalism in what's a highly religious and conservative country isn't realistic. Even if it was, guys like Gulen aren't going to get you there.

This is a bit like leaving Catholicism to become a Scientologist. You're better off staying Catholic and trying to reform the church from within.

[tim333]

People say that about Gulen but there doesn't seem much evidence eg. his recent statement "Like many Turkish citizens, the Hizmet movement’s participants supported Mr. Erdogan’s early efforts to democratize Turkey and fulfill the requirements for membership in the European Union."

On the other hand Erdogan is racing to world #1 in closing news outlets, throwing reporters in jail, threatening anyone who speaks against him and so on.

[drzaiusapelord]

Then Gulen's party can win elections instead of having their loyalists in the military blow up civilians. Why are we excusing mass murder now? The coup attempt killed a lot of people for no reason and Gulen's people need to be held accountable.

Or are you saying that the Turkish people don't have a right to self-determiniation and elites like yourself should prescribe who their leaders are? Liberals decry overthrowing Iran and other governments, but here they are, pleading to overthrow Turkey. Its bizarre.

How about letting the democratic process work itself out and stop murdering civilians?

[tim333]

I'm all in favour of democracy which works better if you don't close half the press and I'm all in favour of punishing the murderers who are found guilty of murder based on evidence. Being guilty of being Gulenist is a different thing.