[cheriot]

Maybe growth has slowed, not because of an inherent limit of technology, but because we just don't have problems as big as our great-grandparents. The biggest enemy we have left is ourselves. We crave attention more, overeat, and look forward to a retirement where our minds waste away.

There are some exciting advances we need to extend the modern world to all of humanity without destroying the planet. But for those of us already living with the best humanity has to offer, our biggest limitation is ourselves.

I keep trying to come up with a reason for how recent advances are improving our lives without increasing GDP. Does anyone have a compelling one? Things like wikipedia are valuable and don't contribute to GDP. But then shouldn't people be happier than 20 years ago?

[alanwatts]

>I keep trying to come up with a reason for how recent advances are improving our lives without increasing GDP. Does anyone have a compelling one?

GDP/GNP is not a measurement of happiness or standard of living.

>Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for the people who break them. It counts the destruction of the redwood and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and counts nuclear warheads and armored cars for the police to fight the riots in our cities. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children. Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country, it measures everything in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it can tell us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans.

-RFK, Speech at the University of Kansas at Lawrence (18 March 1968)

[cheriot]

Right, I'm trying to think of things that are increasing happiness and are not affecting GDP (which the book's author uses to justify the "fall").

[alanwatts]

Computing and renewable energy methods are becoming exponentially more powerful and less expensive to produce, a process called ephemeralization.

[petra]

>> But then shouldn't people be happier than 20 years ago?

A few years ago there was a survey among the amish, and it appears that they are as happy as modern day billionaires.

On the other hand, another survey have shown a decrease of 20% ! in empathy among college students, between 2000-2010. And it have probably became worse since than. And empathy is core to so many critical things.

But when you don't aim society at nothing meaningful, just more money, what do you expect to get ?