[wolfgke]

> And that - not finding it difficult - surprised me a bit, because I had heard from friends in high school that they though German, for instance, was harder to learn than French (anecdote only, not data).

In my opinion (native German speaker) German is at the beginning harder than French for English native speakers. After you got to some level both languages are about equally hard.

For the reason: To become fluent in German you have to know inside out how to conjugate a verb (there are some ugly verbs and tenses) and declinate a noun/adjective (in all three grammatical genders, singular and plural) in all tenses/cases, which is really ugly at the beginning for people who aren't used to it. The best way to learn this is in my opinion brute training until you can do it blindfolded.

The reason why I emphasize this is that you will not be speaking fluently if you have to think for seconds each time what the correct conjugation/declination is for the verb that you want to speak now.

As soon you got over this ugly part (which, because it is ugly you better should be learning it directly at the beginning, so that you have it in you reflexes), German and French are in my opinion about equally hard.

[vram22]

Thanks for the advice, in general.

>For the reason: To become fluent in German you have to know inside out how to conjugate a verb (there are some ugly verbs and tenses) and declinate a noun/adjective (in all three grammatical genders, singular and plural) in all tenses/cases, which is really ugly at the beginning for people who aren't used to it. The best way to learn this is in my opinion brute training until you can do it blindfolded.

Like learning multiplication tables by repeating them out loud and/or writing them out, multiple (heh) times :)

I guess that makes sense, particularly if there are not very systematic rules that define those things, i.e. you just have to memorize it (and is that what you mean by 'ugly' - that it does not follow logical rules by which one can figure out, say, verb conjugations of verb B after knowing it for verb A?)

E.g. I realized a bit after starting the Duolingo course, that it was not clear (without knowing it already) when to use Der vs. Die vs. Das, and some other things like that; even Sie means both She and They (in different contexts) - at least it was not explained in the app, AFAIK - could be I missed some part of it and need to re-check.

I think I need to now get some proper learning books for it. Duolingo can take you only so far, I guess.

[wolfgke]

> I guess that makes sense, particularly if there are not very systematic rules that define those things

There are systematic rules for this, but you don't want to derive the result each time you want to express something. Compare it to applying a formalized multiplication algorithm each time you want to compute something from your multiplication table (up to 100) vs. memorizing the table. You have to understand the rules (just as you have to understand how multiplication works) for conjugating/declinating, but to apply them in practise you have to rote train them as often as you don't have to think about the rules anymore (because you really don't want hesitate for seconds what the correct, say, declination is).

[vram22]

Thanks again for the elaboration. I'm getting what you say, and that was sort of why I referred to learning multiplication tables by rote, above.

It's pretty late for me, so I will read and reply to your and @lorenzhs's (thanks to you too) comments again tomorrow, if I have anything further to say or ask. Good stuff.

[lorenzhs]

"Sie" has multiple meanings: in addition to the two you mentioned it's also the form of "you" used for strangers/official stuff/... it's usually capitalized in that meaning, and always plural even when talking to only one person. Prepare for lots of confusing moments with the Sie-vs-Du question.

[vram22]

>"Sie" has multiple meanings: in addition to the two you mentioned it's also the form of "you" used for strangers/official stuff/

Ah, thanks. I remember now that a few days ago I subconsciously noticed this - or rather, had a doubt - because I thought I had seen "Sie" used for all the three meanings, but wasn't sure (they did not all occur in the same session of using the app). Thought I had got it wrong between the meanings She/You or She/They. Good to have it cleared up.

[vram22]

Interesting. Hindi has 3 words for "you": tu, tum and aap.

The first is for informal usage with familiar people, such as friends or relatives, the second for more formal usage, such as in business or with people you don't know from before, and the third is the more respectful one, such as for elders or superiors in business or people of official rank, such as a judge, priest, etc.

[wolfgke]

> it's usually capitalized in that meaning

Not only usually capitalized in that meaning, but always.

[lorenzhs]

Not everyone does it, though. I mean technically yes, it's required grammatically, but it's one of those rules that isn't always obeyed. It's a mistake but common enough to be aware of it.

[wolfgke]

In my opinion there is a cultural difference here: While in English, as I see it as a foreigner, if many people spell something wrong, it becomes an accepted spelling, in German if lots of people spell something wrong, it is still considered as wrong. There are even websites for common spelling errors and wrongly used words which you can link to in internet discussions to convince someone that/how their spelling was wrong, such as

> http://www.das-dass.de/

> http://www.dassdas.com/

> http://seit-seid.dassdas.com/

> http://wie-als.dassdas.com/

> http://einzigste.dassdas.com/

> http://standart-standard.dassdas.com/

[vram22]

>The reason why I emphasize this is that you will not be speaking fluently if you have to think for seconds each time what the correct conjugation/declination is for the verb that you want to speak now.

Yes, makes sense.