[ced]

Yeah, that's the key. I studied in a Max Planck Institute in Germany. 80% of the students were international and spoke English, but I could always speak German to the remaining 20% and to faculty. Of course, we'd switch to English for technical discussion, but chit-chatting in German makes a difference.

Also, you can think in German at any time of the day.

[wolfgke]

> 80% of the students were international and spoke English, but I could always speak German to the remaining 20% and to faculty.

Even more: Of these 80% there are surely many that also would love to get better in German: Why not also agree to converse with them in German, too?

[bitL]

When I moved to Germany I got one native advice: "Speak English. If you speak broken German, everyone assumes you are an idiot and behave that way towards you. When you talk English, everybody tries to impress you." While I were in Germany it held...

[wolfgke]

> "Speak English. If you speak broken German, everyone assumes you are an idiot and behave that way towards you. When you talk English, everybody tries to impress you."

While there is some small element of truth in it, this only holds if you are new in Germany (and mostly because of politeness). If you live there for a longer time and don't work on your German, it will turn the other way round.

[bitL]

Yes, this passive-aggressive approach from Germans is pretty common. Tolerating for a while and then forcing you to switch, and then putting you back into "idiot mode" as you both sound funny and can't express anything precisely (and don't even try to read legal documents, even Germans can't themselves). If Mark Twain couldn't learn it properly (read his story about the Museum of Curiosities in Heidelberg), how much chance do you stand? When you start studying German in depth, you are going to soon realize that it's an extremely illogical language despite initial appearances. There are so many idiomatic non-sensical ad-hoc rules, you'd have to learn an awful amount of exceptions that are used daily, you simply have little chance to catch up with the natives that consider them normal... Tja

My advice - if you really want to move abroad, move to the US, much less issues overall and English is way simpler up to C2 level (which gets super hard) and you can get a recognition and make a bank way easier.

[wolfgke]

> Tolerating for a while and then forcing you to switch, and then putting you back into "idiot mode" as you both sound funny and can't express anything precisely

That's not true. The typical German mentality is rather: They are/were willing to learn English to be able to communicate with you when you came. But now that you want to stay here for a longer time, you are expected you to learn German, too. So in other words: Some English speakers rather tend to confuse politeness (speaking English at the beginning to native English speakers when they are new to Germany) with acceptance (of having to speak in English to people that stay there for a longer time and are not willing to learn German).

[bitL]

Obviously I was talking about people that achieved B2/C1 level of German but still couldn't "discuss Wittgenstein" with the natives, locking them out of proper interaction at their intelligence level, not about migrants that don't care about learning German at all.

[vram22]

Makes sense to me.

[danenania]

I think the primary challenge to learning a new language in the early stages is confronting this self-consciousness.

It's good training in not worrying too much about what other people think of you. What's the harm really in someone thinking you're an idiot? You know it's not the case.

Swallowing your pride speeds up learning immensely. You can even have fun with it--people will see you as funny and non-threatening, which can actually translate to likability quite easily if you don't get a chip on your shoulder about it.

[wolfgke]

Exactly. Additionally I want to point out that this is what many English speakers expect from foreigners.

[tormeh]

Generally good advice when getting to know someone new that you want to like you. That said, you can always speak German to people you know or people whose opinion don't matter.

[dmoy]

My issue is having basically no accent (raised with German spoken around me), but the grammar and vocabulary of a ~2 year old. Makes for some really weird cognitive dissonance whenever I open my mouth to a German. I feel you on the "think you're an idiot" thing, definitely jives with my experience.

[LeanderK]

Out of interest, whats its like studying at a MPI?

[denzil_correa]

There are many MPIs across Germany. So, each one would have its own experience.

[LeanderK]

i know i may not be representative, but i am still interested in your experience.

[ced]

The faculty were all rather nice to the students, and since it wasn't in a university, the 50 or so international students were a pretty tightly-knit group of people. They pushed a lot to finish the Ph.D. in 3/3.5 years, which is nice. Having so many experts in a specific scientific discipline concentrated in one place is pretty impressive, too.

My heart was elsewhere the whole time, so I'm not the best person to ask :P Germany itself was enjoyable, and I've met some fairly friendly Germans in WGs. It rains a lot in some places. YMMV, good luck!