[sitkack]

I think rust needs to slow down in this regard. I have been with Python since 1999 and the stdlib has held it back, I have also used Scala and Haskell and have witness the mess that platform libs on each have caused.

What Rust has right now is pretty amazing. What needs to happen is a way for devs to easily break the dependency cycle and include multiple versions of the same crate. Something that has plagued Haskell. I dunno what the answer is, trait only crates, struct only crates?

If people want to 'curate' (shop) a set of packages, they can make a meta package that exports its deps.

There is literally no reason to ship libs with the compiler aside from the basic verbs and nouns.

With verioned and properly name-spaced imports, one could use different curated libs.

[goodplay]

If you can, could you elaborate more on python's stdlib holding it back? I think batteries-included experience is one of the reasons why so many people (including myself) use python.

It's also one of the features I sorely miss when using Rust. Luckily, Rust's stdlib is starting to tend towards being more practical with recent additions like system time.

[sitkack]

The 'std lib is where libraries go to die' was invented by Python. The libs are shallow, don't break backwards compat and provide a substandard experience. Things that continue to improve provide an out of tree alternative package name. Python codebases that are resilient don't use much of "core", arrow for time, requests for http, simplejson, etc. Using core is an antipattern that will get you stuck on a version of the language which is ridiculous.

Linking the language and the libraries together is a mistake.

[pjmlp]

I disagree.

In the enterprise space it is quite common that we only get to use what it is in the computer and access to anything else is strictly controlled by IT.

So if it isn't in the standard library or some internal library mirror, we don't get to use it, as simple as that.

[hsivonen]

I think it would be terrible for Rust design/evolution/policy be constrained with that kind of enterprise badness that basically bans crates.io, and crates.io is an awesomeaspect of the Rust ecosystem.

[pjmlp]

I can tell it is lots of "fun" when you can only use a Maven mirror, with approved jars.

To get a jar into that mirror, a request needs to be sent to the legal team describing the license and business case use, after approval the IT team will add the said jar to the mirror.

The same applies to version upgrades of already approved jars.

This is a typical scenario I had already in a couple of projects.

[adrianN]

I agree that this sucks, but not doing it that way is dangerous for the company because developers might not care enough about license compliance when they include some stuff into their project.

[wilmoore]

You willingly subject yourself to this? Why?

[Manishearth]

It's not a constraint as much as it is a consideration imo.

[lmm]

So maybe there's value in shipping a "standard bundle" that includes popular libraries or some such. But it's not worth distorting the whole language design to accommodate bad policies.

[pjmlp]

Might be, however those bad policies are quite standard in big corporations.

[wilmoore]

I see where you're coming from, but I feel like it would be a mistake to expect the language or std lib to try to solve problems that are effectively organizational/cultural issues.

[glandium]

Plus, python's std lib is a mumbo jumbo of all sorts, there is no API coherence.

[oblio]

That's a failure at the moment of inclusion. I'm guessing it was done for convenience and to increase adoption (getting decent libraries in the standard library faster).

[_ZeD_]

Just as a data point... I like and heavily use the core libs... And not once i used arrow, request or simplejson, while knowing them, because i didn't feel the needs

[the_mitsuhiko]

Then you most likely have various security or logic problems in your application unfortunately.

[fnord123]

Arrow seems particularly useless as it just wraps stdlib datetime and its awful 10 byte size rather than moving to an 8 byte representation like np.datetime64 uses.

[rspeer]

Just because you haven't found a use for it doesn't mean it's useless.

The stdlib datetime class is terrible and desperately needs to be wrapped. Arrow is a good wrapper. I don't know what you're on about with counting bytes.

[fnord123]

I've wrapped datetime for company work (pre pandas, pre datetime64) to make sure it follows the rules of the data analysis platform we developed (adding functions for moving to next month of year based on various financial calendar rules for example). I wish I hadn't done it and had just wrapped a boost_datetime since the performance of datetime is slow when you have a large timeseries of them. The performance is especially unacceptable if you also have timezones attached to your datetimes.

Now we have pandas, yay. But I don't see why one would use arrow. If you're patient enough, could you explain why you would use it? The website doesn't seem to be very convincing.

[rtpg]

But isn't requests built off of urllib?

The thing I like about python is it gives tools for library writers to build things without going too low level.

Application writers will always write with better libs, but don't have to worry about third party lib compatiblity on platforms because of the stdlib serving as a virtual machine (most of the time)

[BAKfr]

requests is built on urllib3, and it includes its own version of urllib3 (to avoid dependency problems).

If I'm not mistaken, the stdlib contains urllib and urlib2, but not urllib3.

The fact that there 3 "urllib" packages show that the Python way is not so good.

[lmm]

Many libraries in the stdlib have much better alternatives, because libraries with their own release cycle can evolve much quicker. But people get stuck on the "standard" version because it's what's in the stdlib. Worse, people write for compatibility with whatever was in stdlib 2.4 because that's what RHEL6 ships.

[steveklabnik]

Rust will already allow you to have multiple versions of transitive dependencies.

[sitkack]

This needs to be screamed from the hill tops!

[wilmoore]

To be honest, this is the kind of thing that would be great to highlight immediately on https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo or http://doc.crates.io/guide.html.

I go to those pages and I am given 0 information on how the thing actually works.

[steveklabnik]

Cargo's docs need a bunch of work, it's true. I have so much to do :(

[bassislife]

Which I guess is normal since it does not create any dependency cycle. A new version might as well be thought as a completely different package (of perhaps similar functionality).

[anamoulous]

One of the things I love above all about Python and Ruby are the kitchen-sink standard libraries. The node ecosystem is deeply frustrating in this respect.

[krylon]

It has been a while since I did anything with Python, but I did like its standard library. It was reasonably comprehensive without feeling bloated, and the documentation was pretty good (mostly).

Having a good standard library also makes deployment easier. (In Go, OTOH, I tend to care less, even though its standard library is quite good, because thanks to static linking, deployment is always easy, no matter how many third-party libraries I use.)