[lhuang]

But how should the transition even begin? By repealing all internet censorship laws?

Most people don't realize that every day the situation in China improves for the better. Even the stiffling hukou system that you allude to has been slowly weakened over the years.

In regards to your last sentence I'm not quite sure what you mean. I took it to mean that the social ideas of justice and law are different in China, of which I would tend to agree.

West = rule of law. China = rule by law.

Frankly I think Chinese society is just not ready for democracy. There is simply no civic society.

[rms]

The transition should probably begin by allowing the free formation of civic groups... that's one of the most important institutions missing in China.

[lhuang]

There are civic groups in China, many in fact. The government has even been tolerant, to a degree, to advocacy groups.

I think for a smooth transition, China needs to uplift its rural population. The urbanites are largely ready for democracy, but outside of a handful of cities the rest of the country simply do not have the institutions, social experience, etc to support a working transparent free-market democracy.

[pgbovine]

sorry for the meta-comment, but i'm dismayed by the use of down-votes for posts expressing unpopular opinions (unpopular w.r.t. the hacker news audience). it's gotten so bad that i can quickly pinpoint dissenting opinions by scrolling quickly through a thread and looking for big blocks of grayed-out text (in contrast, down-votes for one-liners like "lulz ur a fag" are usually justified).

[rms]

Yeah, I upvoted lhuang, his was not the kind of wrong dissent that deserved a downvote but the type of dissent that comes naturally on a complex issue without a right answer.

[lhuang]

what i find surprising is that only those users with high karma points can downvote.

excluding those who've racked up points through submissions, the theory goes that high karma points = thoughtful poster.

thoughtful posters should thus realize that China is a country of 1.3 billion people, which highly highly complicates EVERYTHING.

Frankly, compared to the other 1 bln + country, I think China has done a remarkable job. Even if you just focus on the HR record, China is comparable to India, if not exceeding it.

[shrikant]

If by HR you mean "Human Rights", then both me and a most basic Google search are obliged to tell you, good sir, that you are full of it.

[lhuang]

In India... Caste systems are still the norm, the government is as corrupt if not more so than Chinese. Millions and millions still languish in poverty. Crime is higher!

China is worse in regards to suppressing free speech and political dissidents. Everything else; poverty, crime, development India either lags or is just as bad.

[yuvipanda]

India grows despite our government, not because of it.

[lhuang]

It'll grow better if the government wasn't so damn corrupt.

It may even grow even faster if the caste system is abolished.

[Xichekolas]

To go meta on this meta, I think the requirement to downvote is still something like 200 to 250 karma. With a couple good submissions or comments, you could have that in a matter of days.

The community has grown, and these restrictions aren't "indexed to inflation" so to speak, so the bar is lower all the time. Also, while I personally agree that downvotes should only be used for trollish things (or really just done away with in favor of flagging), that has never been universally agreed upon (and I have seen this topic come up a lot).