[616c]

The problem is, and I think in the case of Github he makes his rationale plain and clear:

> I don’t think it would be right for Emacs to use github.com. I don’t even think it is right for ENSIME to use github, but I’m scared of moving in-case we lose contributor momentum. The FSF gave github.com a bad score and it’s not libre, which makes me nervous.

This is what scares me about the power of GH too. But let's be honest, as this came up with Stuart Sierra yesterday as well in his post on open source rewards stupid bug fixes and not hard work.

https://stuartsierra.com/2016/07/18/apathy-of-the-commons

If the work is boring, people won't do it.

A corollary: if the tooling sucks, people avoid the tooling, and then things stay on the backburner and never complete.

I hate the whole Slack/Gitter/IM channel as well, but the idea of avoiding tooling (e.g. git), which did take Emacs forever, leads to far less contributors like me.

Can we at least work on documenting contributor workflow? How do I build an Emacs test environment and harness system? These things must be bookmarked to emacs-devel and other mailing lists on MARC archives and what-not, as I have yet to find even good blog posts (not that I say that as a standard, but in this case more of what I don't want) of how to set this up.

I do not expect a Github wiki linking to a Gitter channel about setting up a Docker dev containter for emacs-25.x, but can we at least have better tooling for pulling from git repos and running the test suite? Document it in the manual?

https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=emacs%20build%20environment

[catern]

>Can we at least work on documenting contributor workflow?

It is documented. Look at the file "CONTRIBUTE" in the root of the Emacs source.

That file is also cited in the manual: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Co...

And that manual page is the first Google result for "contributing to emacs".

[616c]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

This nice, but I have screwed around with open source for a long time. So, things like:

> Ref: The "Tips" Appendix in the Emacs Lisp Reference.

Example Novice (not me in this case): How do I get to that?

> After you have downloaded the repository source, you should read the file INSTALL.REPO for build instructions (they differ to some extent from a normal build).

> Ref: http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/emacs

Example Novice (not me in this case): What am I downloading from there? I guess I will go visit that page.

> See the existing ChangeLog files for format and content. Note that, unlike some other projects, we do require ChangeLogs also for documentation, i.e. Texinfo files.

> Ref: "Change Log Concepts" node of the GNU Coding Standards Info Manual, for how to write good log entries.

Example Novice (not me in this case): What the hell is Texinfo?

My point is this is a good high-level view. It asks me to visit half a dozen different manuals and asks I fill out a CLA.

I am not saying this is even god awful by open source standards, it is good. The problem is I am on the tail end of Linux/FLOSS culture, where a lot of people want more tooling and less learning. I know that is asking a lot. I give counter-examples in this space (Fedora, Mozilla, Start-a-flame-with-Node-NPM-dev-groups) and more focus on onboarding and get on the ground running.

Re your point on Google, I am embarassed. I looked up on DDG, and with !g for Google "emacs volunteer" "emacs hack" initially and never found these documents at first. I later did, but cloning the code is not where I see the issue here.

This stuff does not inhibit me from contributing. The problem with Linux and emacs is I must spam many thousands of people with git patches via email, and I want a way to build a reliable system in a VM or container without shitting all over my system emacs (it is a shell and editor for me) and finding a mentor so I do not get yelled at for spamming THOUSANDS of veteran Emacs devs I respect. I do not want every to use the damn Vagrantfile, but I would an emacs novice devel list or wiki or anything where I can build up to being one of those people, with simplified environments, and admit I need training wheels to contribute to one of the oldest and most important active FLOSS projects in existence. I know I demand a lot, but you seem to know this stuff. In my position, would you contribute a patch without anyone else helping you just given this material and not expect nastygrams back?

Yes, we have a CONTRIBUTE page that links to a dozen manuals is a good start, but is the kind of reaction that leads to the blog posts we see here. I do not mean to target you, but git clone I can do. Moving from that to being a member of emacs-devel that is not yelled at to the stop screwing up is different.

I find that more intimidating and think that is something worth focusing on.

[pnathan]

> I am on the tail end of Linux/FLOSS culture, where a lot of people want more tooling and less learning

To be honest, the 'less tooling, more learning' is exactly why I prefer the GNU culture. It keeps inessential complexity down. A lot of people are broadly in my side of the boat, and it's a major part of why we're here...

[616c]

Some of us need tooling because we do not even know what to learn, or where to start.

Again, this on me. I listened to Wiegley talk, and wanted to get involved. I looked into one weekend, but did not follow up. I need to stay committed. I like the history and culture of GNU as an outsider, and this is why I wanted to get more involved in Emacs.

[pnathan]

Ask questions, read docs, hang out in IRC rooms. Some folks are on Twitter too. :-o

edit: Most of the floss world respects people who take the time to learn something before asking questions. So long as you dig about and frame an intelligent question backed by openly available information (did you RTFM :) ), the people worth respecting aren't going to trash you. I don't contribute to emacs myself, it does pretty much everything I could ever need. I would be happy to help you with floss norms and so forth... contact info in my profile. :-)

[616c]

I have been lazy, but I am trying to figure out how to set up an IRC bouncer for different respective projects specifically with this in mind.

I already emailed you. Thanks for the encouragement.