[protomyth]

This is one of those things that should be repealed. I've frankly gotten tired of the punishing of normal people by dumb privacy invading laws[1], or frankly, taxing them when they are not in the US. There are easier ways of going after people and companies (looking at you Monster Cable) that play fast an lose with our tax laws. I am all for only taxing income / revenue earned in the US.

1) we can get rid of all the BS $10,000 stuff in deposits in the US.

[british_india]

"we can get rid of all the BS $10,000 stuff in deposits"--so you're a-okay with money laundering?

[protomyth]

No, but people like Lyndon McLellan getting taken to the cleaners and having to spend money and time to prove innocence is not worth the theoretical crime.

[british_india]

Really FATCA is one of the most excellent laws that has been passed. Prior to this, you had expats who had milked the US and then they wanted to waltz off with their proceeds.

Americans gain huge benefits from the taxes paid by prior generations. The entire US system is the envy of much of the world--and how did it get that way? Americans paying their taxes. Whether or not you have kids--you must pay property taxes that fund your local schools. Unfair? Hardly. Those schools don't come out of thin air--taxpayers who came before you paid for them. Stop your whining. If you were born in the US, then you benefitted. If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid. That's what you're paying for, in addition to paying for the next generation of Americans to have schools, roads, public utilities and the like.

Really, whining about having to pay your share--no matter where you have run off to--is ridiculous.

[1024core]

> If you were born in the US, then you benefitted. If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid.

I don't know why Americans believe this fairy tale. It's simply not true. Case in point: Yemen, last year. American citizens were abandoned by State[1], only to be rescued by India[2]. What's the point of the taxes, again?

[1] http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/08...

[rogerbinns]

Also note that if the US does rescue you, then they also send you a bill for it. (It is capped at something like the price of a full fare economy plane ticket, which is still expensive.)

[british_india]

So, the State Department is supposed to maintain a worldwide set of consulates--with no charge to you--just so they can swoop in at your time of need and give you services that you then pay for. Do you think all those State Department resources just come out of pixie dust when you need them? Duh, no. We pay things called taxes to keep that worldwide network of consulates existing and available if you need them.

No, like so many expats, you just want to skate under the radar--gleaning the advantages of that blue passport--while expecting the "little people who pay taxes" in the states to float you.

No, all the expat whiners here can go right ahead and whine. Please renounce your citizenship. Your beef is not with the US Government that maintains this country for you to return to if you so choose based on your citizenship--but with all the prior tax evaders who caused the damned FBAR and then FATCA to exist in the first place. I have not heard a single whining expat here point the finger at the true culprits--the tax evaders who were so egregious that they caused FATCA to be passed with a bi-partisan majority in 2010.

[dalke]

Your anger is uncalled for. There's a trivial solution. As leoedin points out at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11071749#up_11072396 :

> The UK embeds the cost of consular protection and embassy services into the renewal cost of a passport - approximately £15 in 2010, probably more now. It's an insurance payment that most people will never use, so it doesn't need to cost very much per person.

I would gladly pay an extra $30 for each passport renewal than pay my accountant $600 every year to tell the US I don't need to pay taxes on my $35K income. That would raise it from $135 to $160.

If you're going to complain that emigrants like me don't point the finger to "true culprits", then I can complain that people like you also never point out the true culprit - a messed up system at the State Department which requires taxpayers who never have and never will travel internationally to subsidize consulates so that emigrants like me can have a backup plan in case war ever comes to Sweden. The more equitable plan is to fund it through a passport fee so only those who may need those services, eg, tourists, business travelers, and yes, emigrants like me, pay for it.

[british_india]

It's amusing that you attempt to marginalize well-reasoned opinions you don't share by labeling their holder as having "anger".

Finally, do you think it costs $30 to maintain a consulate? Just stop your whining: either renounce or pay your taxes.

Finally, in a civilized society, when you encounter laws you don't like--you work to get them changed. Otherwise you're just a childish scofflaw--no different than the bank robber who complains about the laws against robbing banks. "emigrants like me can have a backup plan"--not sure if you meant this as a joke, as it entirely undercuts all your arguments. If you want a backup plan--you gotta pay for it. You could have just as well gone to Somalia as Sweden--so the unlikelihood of war there is not germane to the conversation.

Whiner.

[rogerbinns]

Amusing rant. Incidentally the personal attacks are highly amusing because I AM NOT AN AMERICAN.

As for the last paragraph, I am subject to FBAR & FATCA. The burden of them falls disproportionately on those who are not egregious tax evaders. It is extremely expensive and time consuming complying with them when you are doing the right thing. The evaders can afford to hide what they should be declaring by virtue of having more money, and having more to gain. Plus they have more loopholes and other ways of obscuring their money thanks to the same legislatures.

There are many ways things could fairer. For example these little people who are spending lots of time and money on filings could have their costs reimbursed. If living in a country with a mutual tax treaty then the exemption limit could be raised (currently $10k across all accounts). Or perhaps fairest of all is requiring all US tax payers to do the same thing - list all their accounts and all balances everywhere including domestic.

[gozur88]

>Americans gain huge benefits from the taxes paid by prior generations. The entire US system is the envy of much of the world--and how did it get that way? Americans paying their taxes.

This always amuses me. Previous generations didn't pay for things with taxes. They paid with debt. All those (crumbling) things that are "the envy of much of the world"? I and people my age paid for, decades after they were built. Just like future generations will pay for the things being constructed now.

>Whether or not you have kids--you must pay property taxes that fund your local schools. Unfair? Hardly. Those schools don't come out of thin air--taxpayers who came before you paid for them. Stop your whining.

How is that not unfair? Why should I have to pay for your kids to be educated just because you live near me? Educate your own damn kids. And if not, well, the world needs ditch diggers too.

> If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid. That's what you're paying for...

Anybody who's actually been in trouble can fill you in on the limits of this fantasy. Assuming by "get in trouble" you mean get arrested, the US government will do things like contact your family, verify that you are a US citizen, and try to find you a lawyer.

If you're mistreated they will file a formal complaint with the host government. And I'm sure that's incredibly helpful.

In short, the US government will do pretty much what every government everywhere does for its nationals that "get in trouble".

>That's what you're paying for, in addition to paying for the next generation of Americans to have schools, roads, public utilities and the like.

This is all state and local stuff, except for highways. What does it have to do with the federal government?

>Really, whining about having to pay your share--no matter where you have run off to--is ridiculous.

The problem with this attitude is a lot of us have paid our share and your share too. There's a limit to the amount of rapaciousness a person should be expected to tolerate. Particularly if I'm living in another country, driving on that country's roads, sending my kids (if I had any) to that country's schools, etc.

[british_india]

I see you're experiencing some cognitive dissonance. You can't understand how it could actually be fair for you to have to pay for the services that remain available to you as a holder of a United States passport. Funny, you're claiming that the US is such a hellhole--well some parts of it are but still, why oh why are so many people from around the world clamoring to get to the United States? Because its infrastructure is so corroded? I don't think so.

They want to come here because the United States--at its best--is a perfect example of the benefits that come when people pool their money together to pay for roads, electric and water utilities, the court system that enforces contracts and makes modern life and business possible, the FDA that allows you to feed your children without worry, the EPA that sometimes acts as a watchdog. All of these things come when the vast majority of Americans pool their tax dollars and pay for these things. So, if you are a US Citizen--who went to school here--then you have already benefitted from all these things and it is only just and proper that you now take your turn to contribute during your life. If you don't want to--by all means renounce! Ingrate!

So, seeing that you flatly oppose the idea of a public school system, reveals that you're just a closet anarchist who is such a sociopath that you don't even want kids educated. Hmm. What do you think happens to uneducated kids? They can't get jobs and they rob your house. So, your 'cant' "Why should I have to pay for your kids"--is an example of Low Effort Thinking. You have exposed yourself as a Low Effort Thinker. Don't be flattered. Your "ditch digger" comment was precisely on the level of stupidity as was Marie Antoinette's "let them eat cake" comment.

So, you admit to the long laundry list of things that the US government will do for you. That's enough. Is Portugal, for example, going to come to your aid in lieu of the US. Is Panama? No government at all is going to help you unless you pay them.

In case you hadn't noticed, states all exist within the United States. If the US Federal government keeps a standing army--then the US States benefit from its existence. If the States levy taxes that educate the citizens of their state--then the US Federal government benefits directly. The taxes paid to the Feds and the States are mutually beneficial: fungible. So, it is meaningless to claim these are "state" expenses that don't exist in the exact same place as the overall nation.

I find it quite amusing that you somehow believe that you have paid these vast sums in taxes. I'm sure you're a diligent tax dodger at every opportunity. So--do, please, renounce.

If you inherited your wealth then you're a parasite.

If you earned your wealth in the US, again you did not do it in a vacuum. If you started a company, then you tacitly benefitted in the extreme from the pooled taxes. No matter how much in taxes you paid, you gained many more times in benefits than you paid.

That's why, from the time of the Ancient Greeks, the concept of a progressive tax system, where the percentage paid in taxes increases as a taxpayer goes up the income scale, has been seen as fair. Ben Franklin himself personally worked twice to get this exact same progressive tax system implemented. He mentions his hard work and belief in the idea of a progressive tax system twice in his autobiography.

No, if your viewpoint just makes you look like another Low Effort Thinker.

[gozur88]

>I see you're experiencing some cognitive dissonance.

I see you're not afraid to insert your foot at the very start.

>You can't understand how it could actually be fair for you to have to pay for the services that remain available to you as a holder of a United States passport.

What services could you possibly be talking about here? The holder of a US passport has exactly one service from the US government that's worth anything at all - the right to travel to the US.

>Funny, you're claiming that the US is such a hellhole...

So here is where I started skimming. If you're not going to respond to what I say, the book you've written here has little meaning.

But I did get a laugh out of this:

>If you inherited your wealth then you're a parasite.

Projection. If I've inherited my wealth (sadly, not true in my case), that's between me and my parents. People who think they have a right to other peoples' wealth because it exists and they want it are the parasites.

It's a shame The Daily Worker went out of business, or I'd know a reliable place to find this kind of drivel.

And BTW, a person who's entire political philosophy is based on envy doesn't have room at all to call anyone a Low Effort Thinker.

[british_india]

Services: help from the consulate. Ability to return to the US without getting a visa. Ability of your children to return at will to the US and benefit from our universities at a much lower rate than do non-citizens. Your backup plan.

[gozur88]

So, basically what I said earlier. Nothing but the right to come back.

What is that really worth? $50/year or so?

[nshelly]

Not quite clear how they can "waltz off with their proceeds." They would be required to pay taxes on any income they earned in the US, unless they figured out a way to actualize the income earlier (e.g. Eduardo Saverin renouncing before Facebook's IPO). Sure, by moving to the resident-based tax system used by nearly every other country in the world (China is trying to copy the US system and Eritrea requires you to pay an "expat" tax if you want a visa to return), the US expat could take their US-based K-12 education and leave and work elsewhere, but that's not quite the same. People pay for their college education. An excellent education system also serves the domestic purpose of having an informed citizenry to pass good laws, and attract the best and brightest immigrants from around the world.

I think the biggest reasons other nations don't tax overseas income is because they don't have the power to force a special exception for their expatriate citizens (e.g. Greek citizens working in Canada). The US is using its position of power to require these overseas banks to modify all of their accounting and reporting systems to continue to do business in the U.S. This has large issues of fairness and generates animosity.

[lordnacho]

I have friends who've barely been to America, but they have the passport, so they have to stupid paperwork every year. It's not reasonable.

>Americans gain huge benefits from the taxes paid by prior generations.

So do the citizens of countries with residence based systems.

>If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid.

This is patently not true. When has the US ever intervened on behalf of an ordinary passport holder, in a way that citizens of countries with ordinary tax systems do not?

[danudey]

As someone who lives outside of the US: your political and economic system is at best illogical, and at worst incomprehensibly clueless.

Your government spends billions of dollars on wildly unsuccessful defense projects while at the same time arguing the there's no way to deal with poverty, access to education, homelessness, etc. By cutting back on defence spending, the US could still remain the most powerful military nation in the world and guarantee that every citizen gets a quality education and spends their lives healthy and well maintained. Instead, you insist on going trillions of dollars in debt and then complaining that the poor aren't paying their fair share while the people with so much wealth that it's literally impossible to comprehend use every loophole in the book to avoid paying anything at all. Warren Buffet himself has commented on how he pays less tax than his secretary does.

Meanwhile, your entire government is bought and run by corporations and lobby groups; because money runs the campaigns and the person with the most money wins, elected officials spend a huge portion of their time "in office" not serving their country, their electorate, or even their benefactors, in favour of travelling around, having meetings and dinners and fundraisers, so that they can ensure they get elected again. If you court the right interests then not only will they help pay for you to get re-elected over and over, when you're done with public life they'll offer you a consultancy position where you can make further millions for years convincing your old friends who are still in office to vote the way you want them to because you're old friends.

The entire US system, is, to much of the rest of the world, a farce made manifest. Many of us fail to understand how your populace even got into such ridiculous circumstances, let alone continues to tolerate them year after year.

To claim that someone overseas should pay thousands of euros to tell the US government that they owe no tax while millionaires are using fully legal loopholes that their rich congressional friends refuse to close to shirk millions of dollars of taxes is patently ridiculous.

Fix your system to stop exploiting the poor and giving rights, privileges, and power to the rich elite and you can claim that your system is the envy of the world.

And as for 'how it got that way'? Years and years of economic growth on the backs of slaves imported from Africa certainly helped. Being able to bootstrap your economy by cutting out the business owner's largest expense is certainly an effective way of getting ahead.

[peyton]

I'm sorry, I have to comment.

I don't think your characterization of the US is fair.

It is insulting and doesn't seem topical to the current post, which is about the paperwork burden of living abroad.

Suggesting slavery is "how it got that way" is uniquely tasteless. A lot of people gave their lives to abolish slavery. Many of us have relatives who were slaves or died fighting for its end.

[Retric]

Proceeds from 245 years of slavery is not a small thing.

However, everyone involved is dead and the speration on who is alive now that benefited or suffered from slavery is not clear cut.

[smilingtom]

> As someone who lives outside of the US: your political and economic system is at best illogical

What a dumb, dumb, dumb thing to say. Why are you not embarrassed to be saying things like this?

[tn13]

I am really tired of this pro-pangada. It is so far from truth but one google search away from factcheck.

Majority of the Federal government expenditure goes into Military/Social Security/Medicare. All of which can be substantially reduced. These three components cover more than 70% of total Federal spending.

Out of this Medicare can be seen as taxing current generation to pay for the older generation. Almost all debt can be seen as taxation on future generation.

Also, I totally don't understand "public schools" arguments. Public schools in USA are the worst government institutions ever. Not only I paid taxes for this rubbish but now I have to send my kids to private schools paying full fees because the local public school is not differential from a mental hospital.

[gozur88]

>Public schools in USA are the worst government institutions ever.

They're also funded by state and local governments, so they're not really relevant to discussions about federal taxes.

[vaadu]

The federal government subsidizes some public school programs. But they are heavily regulated by the department of education. Another federal agency that should be abolished.

http://blogs.census.gov/wp-content/blogs.dir/11/files/2012/0...

[protomyth]

> Public schools in USA are the worst government institutions ever.

Clearly you've never dealt with the VA or IHS. Both of which are actually funded by the Federal Government as opposed to the States & Towns which mostly fund public schools.

[anemitz]

> If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid.

Agree this is worth something. I would propose a substantially decreased federal tax bracket (maybe 1-5%) for expats. Sort of like how you pay a decreased vehicle tax when it's not in use.

[1024core]

This would be worth something ... if it was true. See this, for example: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24...

[anemitz]

As a general rule the U.S. government does help citizens abroad. I don't know all the details surrounding this article so I can't comment on whether or not DOS was right or wrong. With a little digging I'm sure you can find thousands of articles about citizens who were helped.

[protomyth]

I would be ok with a "maintenance fee", but I'm against a straight up income tax.

> Sort of like how you pay a decreased vehicle tax when it's not in use

I've never heard of that one. You either pay or don't around here (ND, MN). In some states it is reduced with the value of the vehicle.

[anemitz]

In California you pay a small fee for planned non-operation of a vehicle.