[fabled_giraffe]

I know I'll get napalmed for saying this, but why is this all over HN? Why are people obsessed with cryptocurrencies?

It's bad enough that those with sufficient computing speed/power can already rip off the stock market; why does the world need another way for people to rip each other off?

Since we've determined over history that some people will take advantage of weakness for their own gain, no matter what system you create to transfer goods, resources, services or value representing those, it will be exploited. So- why even spend time on it?

If everyone who cares to maintains their own accounting data does so, regardless of what technologies we are using, we really could just trade in goods, services, and coin and completely get rid of all virtual currency. Investments could go back to literally to providing coins, goods, resources, or services to those that we'd like to support possibly in exchange for reciprocity.

Since that won't happen right away, if you really want to secure your financial future, major S&P 500 index tracking funds have been one of the smartest things over its history to invest in: http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EGSPC+Interactive#symbo...

While some of you made money on bitcoin, many lost. Now the same game has been played again with people believing that someone can write code to replace our currency system and if they get in early enough, they'll be kings or queens. Well- again, it didn't happen. What really is to gain from this fantasy world of cryptocurrencies? It is harming more than it is helping, from what I see.

And if you downvote this, tell me why, otherwise I'll just assume you are with those that want to exploit me and others.

[jacquesm]

> Why are people obsessed with cryptocurrencies?

Because they are interesting in a theoretical way and because real world implementations are even more interesting, they show us what the future might look like.

> It's bad enough that those with sufficient computing speed/power can already rip off the stock market; why does the world need another way for people to rip each other off?

That's not the intent.

> Since we've determined over history that some people will take advantage of weaknesses for their own gain, we should assume that as a given until proven otherwise.

Agreed.

> No matter what system you create to transfer goods, resources, services or value representing those, it will be exploited.

That remains to be seen. There is an outside chance that it is possible to create something solid, my guess is that it will have to be something extremely simple.

> So- why even spend time on it?

Just like it took a while to map the globe, mapping this 'space' takes time - and effort - and funds. I'm fine with it, it isn't my time, my effort or my funds and I end up learning just as much as those that put forward their resources. Think of it as free education on someone else's dime. That's a pretty cynical view but to date I have not seen any system that appears to be solid enough to warrant backing.

> If everyone who cares to maintains their own accounting data does so, regardless of what technologies we are using, we really could just trade in goods, services, and coin and completely get rid of all virtual currency.

That would severely limit the amount and kinds of trade possible. On the other hand, a really strong cryptocurrency has risks all its own and it is worthwhile to consider the downsides with the upsides.

[DrJokepu]

> That remains to be seen.

Isn't this a somewhat meaningless statement? Is it possible to prove that "no matter what system you create to transfer goods, resources, services or value representing those, it will be exploited"? Is it possible to prove the contrary (that there is or could be such a system)?

It will never be seen because we will never know for sure one way or the other. Best we can do is to make educated guesses based on past experiences.

[jacquesm]

Let's take banking as an analogy: is it perfect? No, it definitely isn't. But it is 'good enough' to power worldwide commerce.

So until these systems reach reliability parity with 'ordinary' banking we'll see reduced trust. But once a system gets launched that has staying power and that appears to have made the right decisions in the founding phase you can expect more and more commerce to ride on them.

When more commerce is involved the 'bounty' on finding a flaw increases and so any system that carries a substantial amount of commerce and that keeps on standing can be presumed audited to that level.

So it really remains to be seen, which group comes up with a system solid enough to carry a substantial fraction of the worlds commerce. Bitcoin is interesting because even after a couple of years it is still standing, which all by itself is impressive.

Will we ever know for sure? I suspect we will not because this is akin to proving a negative, just like you can never be 100% sure that you've found the last bug in a system. But at some point the premium will be so high that failure to exploit the system should give good confidence that all avenues for exploitation have been exhausted and that even if the system still contains flaws those flaws may not be exploitable. It's an asymptotic curve.

[tootie]

I don't understand how this is even comparable to "banking". It seems like more a replacement for wire transfers. I don't see how it changes the face of investment or the flow of capital.

[tinco]

I think maybe you're a bit confused about what HN is, it is a community that gathers and discusses news that is relevant to people who are starting or funding new companies, mostly in the information technology sector.

Cryptocurrencies attract money and spawn companies, there are YC funded startups that are based around cryptocurrencies. If you're looking for refuge from them, you've gone to the wrong place, this is basically the lions den. If there's money to be made with technology, this is where it'll be discussed, no matter over whose back.

Just that it's on HN doesn't mean HN or even YC supports it. If everyone on HN would support ETH, BTC or the DAO, it'd be worth even more. It's just interesting technology with relevance to business and finance.

[fabled_giraffe]

> it is a community that gathers and discusses news that is relevant to people who are starting or funding new companies, mostly in the information technology sector.

Been here since 2007 off and on. Usually don't use same user because I quit HN periodically due to philosophical differences, and I don't care about HN user karma or the ability to downvote.

It's been my experience that people here have many interests, and debates of we should be exploring certain avenues and why we obsess over things are just as valid as any other.

[dang]

One "philosophical difference" that you need to know about is that comments like these aren't allowed here:

> I know I'll get napalmed for saying this

> And if you downvote this, tell me why, otherwise I'll just assume you are with those that want to exploit me and others.

Please reread the HN guidelines, particularly the last two: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you're going to comment here, please follow them.

The "why is this on HN" genre is also pretty lame.

[fabled_giraffe]

I'm sorry, I was unaware of that guideline.

Here are some you might be unfamiliar with:

'When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."'

'Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think a story is spam or off-topic, flag it by clicking on its 'flag' link. If you think a comment is egregious, click on its timestamp to go to its page, then click 'flag' at the top. (Not all users see flag links; there's a small karma threshold.)'

Thanks.

[martinko]

>Now the same game has been played again with people believing that someone can write code to replace our currency system and if they get in early enough, they'll be kings or queens.

Is that all you see?

Decentralized currencies, ethereum and DAOs are fascinating from a technological standpoint. This is major news in the field of smart contracts, which are related to both programming and technology. How could this not be posted here?

[wyager]

That is extraordinarily pessimistic and rather short-sighted, to be blunt. The point of cryptosystem-based financial tools is that they're more... raw than the normal financial tools we have access to historically. They work by a much stricter set of rules. This means it's easier to mess up and lose money, but it also means they're more efficient, predictable, and equitable.

The existing financial system is inextricably entwined with our political and legal system. This is both good and bad. Bitcoin, ethereum, etc. are efforts to make financial systems that are independent of politics and central management. In my opinion, Bitcoin has done a much better job, because it's actually reasonably decentralized and they don't change the rules whenever people get their money stolen.

[TazeTSchnitzel]

> I know I'll get napalmed for saying this, but why is this all over HN?

Because the DAO's failure is interesting.

[draw_down]

And funny!

[dang]

A number of internet forums have branched off from HN to fill niches that HN doesn't fill. I'm beginning to think that somebody needs to fork a forum for Schadenfreude. We don't want comments like this here.

[fabled_giraffe]

Looking at your comments- it seems like for all of your karma, you generate a lot of content on HN that is strictly policing: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang

Just imagine if you will if all members of the site created similar comments constantly. That would hide all of the discussion relevant to the topics being discussed.

But, I agree with what you said- I don't like it when people enjoy suffering either. I just think that possibly the best way to handle it would be to just ignore those posts, as you might elicit more response from them.

[pvg]

dang is a moderator of HN.

[irln]

Because it is an insanely interesting problem to try and solve technically.

That is, a medium of exchange is essential to a modern economy and yet how to objectively regulate the supply of that medium of exchange without exploitation can be considered somewhat of a paradox. The quest is to solve the paradox via ever evolving technological solutions.

[vezzy-fnord]

objectively regulate

There's your problem. Such grandiose visions might have passed for a 1930s-era technocrat, but are laughable today.

[irln]

> objectively regulate

I think you misunderstood...regulate as in increase or decrease the creation of the medium of exchange through technology, not government entity.

[xenophonf]

Even though I disagree with some of your conclusions, I personally have no problem with your comment except for the very first and very last sentences. I generally downvote people who complain about submissions or about their comments being downvoted, which I view as unproductive.

[dhimes]

I feel the last sentence, unfortunately, is relevant. Too many people now just downvote without explanation, and that is not helpful to the conversation. In something like this, which is a question disguised as a rant or vice versa, an explicit request is, unfortunately, necessary today.

[yankoff]

So we should just stick to our current currency system forever? Why even bother trying to invent new things if they fail sometimes?

[TruthAndDare]

> It's bad enough that those with sufficient computing speed/power can already rip off the stock market

Who is getting ripped off?

[tdaltonc]

Any one who agree with the narrative outlined in Flash Boys (which I do), thinks that HFT is basically a drain on the economy. It doesn't help allocate capital more efficiently or provide any liquidity when it's actually needed. It uses speed and deliberately rigged market rules to take returns fro people that are trying to put capital to work (either as investors or as businesses).

[ghamrick]

I don't participate in virtual currencies because I am not smart enough to understand all the nuances, or at least I don't take the time to try and understand them. Plus, I don't have money to throw away. However I find the discussions about the DAO fascinating because of the intersection of technology, law, ethics, morality and government.

[huuu]

I agree that greed is a world wide problem. But even when we trade in goods services and coins it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people are greedy.

This is on HN because this story is interesting from a technical point of view.

[jhildings]

It's a very interesting combination of a lot of HN related subjects. Like networking, cryptoanarchism, decentralisation , computer science and scaling problems, cryptographic solutions and finance platforms.

What not to like about reading about news and opinions about this ? I find the current obsession with deep learning/AI here much more uninteresting

And also, just read the first word of the name. HACKER news, which is very self explanatory

[Atwood]

I do not denounce your assertion(s), but, I would like to read how you apply them to Ethereum. To me, the literature seems very much to be attempting to prevent from baking in our (human) duplicitous nature, opting instead for an almost forced virtue. Please suffer a fool and expound/expand for me?

[verroq]

Because we missed the boat and we hope the boat sinks.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

[fabled_giraffe]

I'm sorry for violating an HN guideline by saying "I know I'll get napalmed for saying this". I was not aware of that guideline, and have been in the HN community for about nine years now.