[jsjohnst]

Having worked in a Samsung office for enough time to have an informed opinion, I can emphatically say that the "hardware focused history" has nothing to do with their lacking on the software front. They have some amazing engineers (especially at HQ in Korea), but the main obstacles are partly Korean culture in general (especially as it pertains to engineers) and partly the management practices of the company. The best things they develop (either in partnership or internally) usually never have a fair leg in the market. I'm certainly not apologizing for the company, just saying don't think the issues you see are directly the engineer's fault.

I don't remember the exact Korean wording, but a common phrase said by Samsung engineers (under their breath) in Korea basically translates to "I'll do what you say, but it's only because I'm at <name of a Japanese labor camp that I forget now>." My time there really made me appreciate how much better we have it here!

[jeswin]

> They have some amazing engineers (especially at HQ in Korea), but the main obstacles are partly Korean culture in general (especially as it pertains to engineers) and partly the management practices of the company.

Can you explain the cultural aspects (and management shortcomings) in more detail for those of us who haven't experienced Korea? Thanks.

[itchyouch]

Haven't experienced a Korean workforce first hand, but as a Korean I can probably provide some insight into the culture.

In general, the culture is very hierarchical (respecting elders) thus seniority and age play a big factor in leadership. I would assume that this makes it very easy for mediocre (but good enough to survive) management to stay in positions far too long. Asian culture, but Koreans especially, can be masochistic1 and martyr2 like in their methods. In some ways this creates a tremendous amount of excellence, but it also creates soldiers who may not necessarily be incentivized to innovate, and those who innovate, out of cultural respect will tend to not dare "disrespect" seniority. Being a good soldier makes for career advancements.

Management can also claim the failures of the company as their own personal failures, rather than the gray collective failure of a group(e.g. japanese ceo's claiming company failure as their own), thus employees kind of get absolved of blame.

Work in Korea also tends to be a live at the office kind of affair. It's not uncommon for the white collar folk to go into work at 7a, and stay until 7-9p. Then go drinking with coworkers until midnight, and rinse and repeat. While this makes for very strong bonds amongst coworking peers and better teams, I would imagine that it also takes a toll on the mental capacity of the workforces.

Mainly, I wouldn't be surprised if work in Korea tends to be death marches all the time based on the martyrdome syndrome and masochistic syndrome for career advancement.

1 - http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2010/01/koreans-english-acqui... makes 30k vocab flash cards to learn english 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-yD4OfY8cM boyfriend gives up both eyes for girlfriend he blinded. Why not keep 1 eye?

[crdoconnor]

This is a more general Confucianist trait - not limited just to Korea.

[tombrossman]

It's been a while since I was there but as a lowly US Army Private stationed there and working closely with Koreans old and young as an ambulance driver, there are a few things I still remember clearly.

Basic courtesy and being polite are pretty much universal, so try to be humble and keep an open mind and observe. Older people often are more experienced and savvy about how to handle something so being deferential to them is a no-brainer. You'll spot the incompetent ones soon enough and so continue being polite but ignoring their guidance.

One thing that drove me nuts but took a little while to figure out was that people would almost never say no to a request. I would ask if something was possible and they would pretty much always say yes, not wanting to disappoint, but I would have been better off hearing a 'no, sorry'. I wanted a realistic answer and theirs were often far too optimistic.

Me: "Mr Son, can we make it to Osan in 30 minutes?"

Him: "Yes" (always yes)

An hour later we show up late to another hospital with a very impatient air crew idling and waiting for our patient transfer. We would have all been better off hearing a "No, it takes an hour". Just one small example but this scenario repeated frequently.

I learned that when speaking to a group or doing a presentation it was customary to apologize for your inexperience on the subject and promise to do your best. Tim Berners-Lee could start a talk with "I'm sorry I don't know much about the World Wide Web..." for example and Westerners would laugh but the locals would be like "He's off to a good start".

Understanding this helped me get more realistic answers though. Even if I thought I knew an answer I would keep the question more open-ended to solicit a better response.

Me: "Mr Son, I'm sorry but I forget how long it takes to get to Osan, can you remember?" (said even after making the trip solo dozens of times in often difficult and stressful conditions).

Him: "Ah yes, there is new road construction halfway there so I'll teach you an alternate route to bypass it. We'll be there in about 40 minutes".

Had I not learned to ask a better question, I never would have learned his faster alternate route.

Korea was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed hanging out with the older Koreans who worked on our base, they were a constant source of good info once learned how to talk to them. I also had a 'ration card' entitling me to buy the occasional bottle of Crown Royal on base and give them, which always helped!

[Bahamut]

I only have secondhand knowledge (my brother worked at Samsung HQ for almost two years after grad school & a post-doc), but Samsung managers are often corrupt and treat their employees like trash. Foreigners have it a little better, they're allowed to go home at relatively more normal hours, but if you're from Korea and Korean, you do whatever the boss tells you or they retaliate hard since there are plenty of starry-eyed hardworking Koreans ready to take your place to work for the biggest company in & the pride of Korea. My brother wasn't completely immune either, they stiffed him on bonus pay by 50% on a max bonus year & lowballed him compared to all other foreigners by almost 2x compensation for similar credentials (our suspicion is because he's Korean - they refused to give him a reason. When he tried to go higher through a former Samsung VP relative of ours, who got a high ranking HR person to investigate, he got warned by his HR manager with an implicit threat), and he was a hotshot who finished his chemistry PhD at 25 at a top 25 US program who had his choice of jobs/academic positions. He ended up making it through by making a deal with his boss to leave him alone and my brother would avoid exposing corruption/bad decision making & getting him sacked (boss refused to teach or lend any resource for learning technical Korean chemistry terminology because his experience in American graduate school had him learning it on his own - it was explicit retaliation against western academia), and my brother still hated his life there (thought about suicide almost every day there); his first reaction setting foot on US soil again was "I love the taste of freedom!".

Whenever someone in HQ tells you to do something, you do it, and if not, you get punished, whether that's through decreased compensation or they fire you. You can be the engineer that tells managers that you can't draw parallel lines that intersect (metaphorically speaking), but they don't want to hear it unless the competitor proves them wrong with sales results - they are notorious for not innovating, but copying competitors. Samsung runs on waterfall from top to bottom. Oh, and if they tell you to do something early in the morning, you jump.

Samsung also tends to mainly promote Koreans - if you're not Korean and want to get ahead, you'd best look elsewhere because you're not likely to accomplish it. I hear this also applies to their American divisions as well, but I do not know anyone who has worked for them here. The family who owns the company has had some history with corruption in Korea as well, so this isn't too surprising.

More on the cultural side, Koreans can be very rude by western standards - it also is demanding on expectations. You're often expected to dress a certain way (this part is no different from most of the world, but disregarding norms is probably more harshly regarded in Korean culture than most), as well as join bosses & other co-workers going out to drink and doing karaoke at night. Deferring to father-like/older figures is built into the language with even how one addresses another, and that bleeds into how companies operate (& people treat each other - even being one month older can come into play unless you have leverage of some sorts). There are also built in opinions on processes, from parenting to schooling to work. Koreans tend to also be quite xenophobic/racist, even against Koreans who cannot speak Korean (maybe even moreso towards Koreans who cannot speak the language). Society sort of disowns those who are not immersed in the culture. Non-Asian foreigners are special, but they are excluded from much of anything of consequence (probably to avoid stirring the pot with other nations).

There's probably a lot more I'm missing here, but tl;dr if you aren't an extremely mentally tough person, working for a Korean company in Korea can crush you thoroughly. It is a different world, and people who do so from western society are left without a support base.

[tatrajim]

Just to provide another perspective, I'm an American anglo who has lived off and on for over 30 years in South Korea, speak the language near fluently, have worked in a variety of Korean institutions from a rural health center to a top research university. Along the way I have benefitted mightily from friendship with some great colleagues and much enjoy the rich culture and fascinating challenges of living in a rapidly changing society. Well-satisfied expats such as myself are not few in number. No surprise, the key is learning the language and using it for creative engagement with Korean society.

That said, I think it's fair to say that among many Koreans Samsung is viewed with respect but no affection. The company history dates back to the Japanese colonial period and is imbued with the pre-WWII Japanese zaibatsu mentality. What some posters are generalizing as "Korean" seems more the rather specialized local culture of Samsung. Personally, I would never work for them.

[PieterH]

Excellent description. I worked for six months with Samsung in Seoul and Suwon and it was exactly like this.

[martin-adams]

This makes me think twice about the Samsung brand I have sitting in my pocket.

[bane]

That's not a corporate thing, it's the culture of the entire country. Try not to condemn an entire culture just because you disagree with how they do things. From the perspective of Koreans, Westerners do lots of really unpleasant things as well.

There's also lots of very positive things about Korean culture, just like there are about Western cultures.

[martin-adams]

All I'm saying is that if I'm going to fall in love with the brand, it would be nice if the employees of the company also have the same love for it.

This quote from the parent comment: "Samsung managers are often corrupt and treat their employees like trash"

makes me feel like I'm not fully aware what really goes on and is not something I like to actively support.

[aaronbasssett]

https://www.danwatch.dk/en/nyhed/suicide-and-class-struggle-...

[miraj]

this article gives a view from the gender aspect of korean workplace culture: http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21700461-conservative-wor...

[dmix]

Having good SW engineers languishing under bad management/culture might be worse than having no good engineering talent.

[jasonlotito]

> Having worked in a Samsung office for enough time to have an informed opinion

That's Samsung proper. Not their incubator setup, which is different. Companies like Mapzen were bought by Samsung, but have a completely different culture.

[Shinchy]

I've heard that too, I remember a story from a worker who said they put all the Engineers into a room and said they can't leave until an issue was fixed. Took them two days.