[treve]

Kind of surprised that this seems to be the sentiment. I rather live in a place where I make less, but the wealth is better distributed. To me a high standard of living is not just a good salary, but also good living conditions of those around me. If Toronto is to be the next Bay Area, and I have to walk over the homeless to get to work, I'm out of here.

[jchiu1106]

Have you lived in Toronto? Houses in the city average over 1M CAD and there are tons of vagrants on the street.

[treve]

I currently live in Toronto, but I didn't buy a house. My monthly expenses would be nearly 30% higher for a morgage and condo fees for the place I'm renting now. I rather invest that in a business.

As for people living on the street. According to wikipedia the estimated homeless population in San Fransisco is between 7000 and 10000. The estimated number in Toronto is 5,253 (source: Toronto.ca), but since Toronto has 3.5 times the population, this means that the homeless population is at least 5 times bigger.

[refurb]

The greater Toronto area includes other cities and the suburbs. Not a fair comparison to SF proper.

Compare SF bay area to Toronto would be more fair.

[mdellabitta]

I'm not sure any comparison would ever really be fair simply because SF is much more hospitable in the winter as compared to Toronto. That has an effect on homeless populations as well. Compare Vancouver and Toronto and you'll see a similar difference.

[jchiu1106]

The city of Toronto is a lot bigger than SF as a result of amalgamation[1], but most vagrants "live" in downtown core, which is an area a lot smaller than SF.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgamation_of_Toronto

[robbbbbbbbb]

Have you considered Seattle? I used to work in Toronto and I am currently living here and I love it.

[pyre]

I've lived in Toronto and Portland (Oregon). Portland had more vagrants than I've experienced in Toronto. I'm sure the absolute number is probably higher, but the distribution doesn't seem the same. From what I hear, SF also has a large problem with vagrants / homeless. I'm not sure that "move to SF" is the solution to the "I don't want to be around these vagrants" problem.

[treve]

Just making sure, my point was not "I don't want to be around these people". My point was that I don't want to partake in a system which such a big income-gap.

In the Netherlands (where I come from) the average saleries for programmers are even lower, but in return you get a pretty great social system and a much saner work/life balance.

[robbbbbbbbb]

I wouldn't assume that Toronto does a better job at income equality, just that the weather is significantly harsher.

[aianus]

> To me a high standard of living is not just a good salary, but also good living conditions of those around me.

To most it's the opposite. Wealth is relative so I'd rather live in a 3rd world country making $50k than SF making $150k.

[rayiner]

Have you ever lived in a third world country? I lived in Bangladesh until I was 5. Homeless people in SF is one thing. But children begging in the street. Fuck, I don't have the stomach for that.

[aianus]

Yes, I lived in Vietnam (where the median salary is $150-$200 a month) for 6 months on ~$20,000.

It was loads of fun and I enjoyed a lifestyle equivalent to earning at least $250k back in SF. Hotel room in the city center, maid service, bar night every night, motorcycle, valet parking everywhere, restaurants 3x a day, etc.

> But children begging in the street. Fuck, I don't have the stomach for that

There appeared to be a lot less of that level of poverty in Saigon than in SF, but maybe that's because poor people don't live in the city like they do in the US. In any case, my presence there surely wasn't making anyone poorer so I don't feel bad about it.

[pm90]

I don't think rayiner suggested that you're contributing to the state of affairs, just that its rather heartbreaking to see the level of abject poverty in many non-western countries. And even if it sounds supremely selfish, I do like living in an area/country where I don't have to see that every day on my way to work.

[rpgmaker]

I doubt anyone can make you leave the States or Canada to work on a third world country for that paltry amount of money.

[ryanSrich]

If you're an American you need 6 figures to pay back your $100k+ student loan debt. It's not like these young tech employees are living high on the hog. They move to these tech centers because they have to.

[treve]

If you work in Toronto as a programmer, you are middle class or upper-middle class or you should be looking for a different job. There's plenty of work.

[Kephael]

Student loans of 100k+ are very atypical for an American graduate. The average undergraduate indebtedness at graduation is closer to 30k.