[rpedela]

I could see that if it was a pill or injection taken periodically over 15 years, but not a single procedure. In general, you have a point but the fact a single procedure has been curative for 15 years suggests with high confidence that there is real effect.

Also claiming that MS is largely psychological is, at best, insulting to MS patients.

[cpncrunch]

>I could see that if it was a pill or injection taken periodically over 15 years, but not a single procedure

This is a pretty involved, and long, procedure. One of the main factors about psychosomatic fatigue/pain illnesses is that the patient gets stuck in a vicious circle where the stress of the illness itself causes further symptoms. Sometimes all that is required is something that breaks the cycle.

>Also claiming that MS is largely psychological is, at best, insulting to MS patients.

First of all, I never said that. I pointed out there there are psychological aspects to it, and argued that there may be some patients diagnosed with MS who have a psychosomatic illness. What % that is, we don't know.

I would also argue that it is very unhelpful for you to have that attitude, and it is a reflection of the bias against psychiatric illness that is so prevalent in society.

It also goes against what we know about how the brain works. It has been pretty conclusively demonstrated by Noakes and others that psychosomatic fatigue is a fundamental part of the human brain, and likely all mammals as well. Saying that psychosomatic symptoms are somehow bad - or imaginary - is fundamentally misrepresenting the science.

Unfortunately this is a very common attitude. I saw last week one of the world's top medical researchers say that changes in mitochondrial activity prove that an illness is not psychosomatic. That statement is, of course, demonstrably false, because cortisol (and therefore stress) reduces mitochondrial activity.

[paulbjensen]

MS is nerve damage caused by the nerve cell's coating (Myelin) being mistaken for a foreign body by the immune system, and attacking it. How would the Placebo effect stop and reverse that nerve damage?

[DanBC]

Placebo would have no effect on that nerve damage.

Some of the symptoms of MS have nothing to do with the nerve damage. Some of the symptoms are real, but not explained by the MS. Those symptoms may be relieved with psychological therapy.

They use CBT for pain in some cancer patients - use of psychological therapy for real symptoms in people with physical illness isn't a bit of woo-peddling. It's giving people in pain some help.

[cpncrunch]

>MS is nerve damage caused by the nerve cell's coating (Myelin) being mistaken for a foreign body by the immune system, and attacking it.

That's the headline theory for MS, but if you look at the actual research you'll see that it's not actually proven. Sensitivity and specificity are 46% and 63% for the McDonald criteria, which is very poor. Plaques in MS are associated with depression, not disease activity in general. Patients with depression (but no MS) show myelin damage and brain plaques as well. The myelin damage may just be a factor of depression.

Sometimes things in medicine aren't quite as settled and proven as you might think. MS is certainly a very good example of this. Unfortunately there is such emotional and intellectual attachment to the idea that MS is neurological and caused by myelin damage that it is next to impossible to change people's minds. (I'm talking about the minds of doctors and researchers, not patients). It's certainly not something I'm interested in doing. I just find it interesting.

[kittiepryde]

(I might have entirely misinterpreted your comments, but they're definitely thought provoking -- and I only have more questions)

Are you suggesting that there might be 2 or more diseases that present as MS, some of which might be psychologically caused? If this was true, is there a process to look for this? Or that we don't know anything at all about MS since 'its' effects that we know to look for could be caused by the depression that comes with a debilitating condition?

Is there a point where if a costly placebo grants amazing results, is it was worth 'going through the motions' anyway to save lives \ greatly improve the quality of life?

[cpncrunch]

[reply deleted due to downvotes]

I guess this isn't the place for logical discussion. You post a logical, well-thought-out reply based on science, and people just downvote it. Discussion over. Sadly, this obviously isn't the place to discuss innovative research like this.