[jean_claude]

It isn't just the cost that's an issue, it's the fact that American workers are not as... flexible... on what constitutes an acceptable work/life balance. Would you do what these workers ( http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and... ) do if you had any other opportunity at all? Labor laws aside, could they pay you enough to live and work like this and still make an affordable device?

Relevant quote from article:

Apple had redesigned the iPhone’s screen at the last minute, forcing an assembly line overhaul. New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight.

A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

“The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”

[Joeri]

Why is it legal to sell goods that are made with labor that would be illegal in the country of sale?

If the US and Europe required that as part of the certification process for sale the labor also had to be certified, it would make their economies more competitive while simultaneously raising quality of life abroad. It seems like an obvious win, even for a corporate congress, so i don't understand why it hasn't happened.

[eli_gottlieb]

Because the actual point of most trade agreements nowadays is precisely to empower the investor class to override local standards regarding things like product composition (think of Europe and its cheeses), labor (what you said already), and environmental issues (think of how China and India dump garbage). It's not at all smart in the long-term if your goal is anything aside from class-struggle from the top, but that does in fact seem to be the goal.

[landryraccoon]

Protectionist trade policy easily leads to wars. Banning goods produced with Chinese labor practices is tantamount to banning Chinese imports, which will have far reaching global implications beyond iPhones, and will increase military tensions greatly. Countries that don't trade find it much easier to start shooting at each other.

On the other hand, free trade leads to freer exchange of information, ideas, and aligns the incentives between nations so that cooperation is more beneficial. Powerful economic interests on both sides will have strong incentives to pursue peace. If those incentives are removed, nationalistic forces and firebrands have less of a counterweight to pursue miltaristic or aggressive policies.

As an example, think about the trade embargo against Iran. It was basically a declaration of war on Iran from the whole world. If the US institutes anything comparable with China it will be easily considered by China as an open act of hostility. This is how the Cold War 2.0 gets started.

[kobayashi]

You had me until your last para. The sanctions against Iran were most certainly not akin to a declaration of war. If Iran had viewed it as such, it would have likely closed the Strait of Hormuz in retaliation, which it regularly vows to do if a warring scenario were to arise. So not even Iran viewed the sanctions as war-like.

The sanctions were are digression from international norms meant to coerce an equally disruptive violation of international laws - the covert production of highly enriched uranium and the illegal development of nuclear weapons.

The implementation of trade restrictions on Chinese goods would probably start a trade war, and another Cold War seems to me to be a plausible outcome. I agree with your conclusion on that point.

[bmh_ca]

The relevant rules for trade wars are "national treatment" and "most favoured nation". You will see those terms quoted extensively in any legal trade dispute, notably before the WTO.

Labour laws per se do not violate mfn or nt, so long as the labour laws apply domestically as well as to imports (since trade wars are essentially about import tariffs).

The primary reason we do not apply labour law to the producers of imports is because labour is poorly organized, under funded, and lacks political will and/or forethought.

[riprowan]

Who in the US can authoritatively certify Chinese labor?

And what about the majority of iPhones which are not for sale in the USA? Can they be made with "slaves" since their destination is not the USA?

And if not (because Apple is a USA company) what keeps Apple from leaving the USA to escape the "no-slave law"? If Apple can't leave the USA in order to hire "slaves" to build phones for the non-USA market, how can they compete against a foreign company which can use "slaves?"

And if said foreign company builds an iPhone competitor using "slaves" for a cheaper price than the USA-made phone, how do you combat the black market in the USA for these "slave phones?" You just invented a local law enforcement problem.

[Joeri]

In order of appearance:

Who in the US can authoritatively certify Chinese labor?

You certify it just like anything else that is hard to inspect: require companies to sign binding documents that certify their goods as in compliance with the law, and fine them when proof is found this is not the case. It doesn't get rid of violations, but it does cut them down a lot.

And what about the majority of iPhones which are not for sale in the USA?

Just because one country jumps off a bridge, everyone else should follow suit? I find this kind of reasoning neither here nor there.

what keeps Apple from leaving the USA to escape the "no-slave law"

Nothing except profit. Why walk away from the most profitable markets you have, even if due to new legislation the profits are a little less obscene than they used to be?

how can they compete against a foreign company which can use "slaves?"

Because foreign companies wouldn't be able to use slaves if they want to sell their goods in the US or EU.

how do you combat the black market in the USA for these "slave phones?

There's already an illegal cheap phone circuit, for stolen phones. Besides, it might be a good thing if crime rings start pushing phones on people instead of pushing drugs. It would also be amusing if people would steal phones to fence them for money to buy illegal phones.

You can keep finding nits to pick, but ... I see point nor reason to do so.

[throwitaway1]

> it's the fact that American workers are not as... flexible...

And to a certain extent, american workers can choose to quit and try to find work elsewhere. There is no "freedom of work" in China for people coming from rural areas. It's a bit like H1Bs in the US. They can't choose where they want to work. When you don't have freedom of work you're basically a slave to your employer and you don't really have the freedom to quit.

[Pinckney]

It is simply a cost issue. Look at North Dakota during the oil boom, for example. It turns out paying $150k+ gets you plenty of applicants willing to work 120 hour weeks out of a dormitory.

[dba7dba]

> “The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”

Extreme sugar coating with MBA lingos of forced labor camp.

I am GLAD there's no such American plant.

[petecox]

12 hour shifts sounds very 19th Century! Workers marched in the streets against such things... I thought PRC was founded on the communist ideals of the proletariat?

12 * 2 = 8 * 3.

Introduce an 8 hour day and you can hire 50% more workers!

[throwitaway1]

> I thought PRC was founded on the communist ideals of the proletariat?

China is a dictatorship which provides capitalists slave like workforce. The capitalists get their slaves and can hypocritically point fingers at China and how bad communism is, and the corrupt Chinese government gets his money. Everybody is happy (except the victims of that cynical farce). That's shows the power of PR and persuasion. I remember 15 years ago people still protesting against China at its terrible working conditions in the west, or against the treatment of Tibet by the Chinese government. Who questions that today ? nobody, not even lefties.

Of course Apple could build the iPhone in the west and sell it at the exact same price. It just wouldn't be as profitable as it is and would require significant investments on infrastructure and factories but the "market" wants high return on investment, not just profitability. Worker's rights arbitrage is how corporations like Apple, any textile manufacturer or hardware manufacturer got so rich.

Anybody who thinks that scheme made things cheaper needs to look at the insane debts most western countries are running. That's the hidden cost of all that system. That high debt is a sign the quality of life will go down in the west in the foreseeable future.

[taneq]

Only if your unemployment rate is over 33%.

[flamedoge]

I am not glad there isn't such American plant yet. I foresee a day where plants are engineered to be flexible and cost efficient enough to mass produce at blink of an eye with a new design. We still have a very long way to go to exploit our own ingenuity, and this is only talking about automation.

[orionblastar]

Yet. Using cross training on the assembly line basically teach everyone all the positions on the assembly line can cut down on costs and improve quality. Use robots for the hard stuff, use people for the sensitive stuff that needs human hands.

[dba7dba]

I'm mostly concerned about waking up 8000 workers middle of the night, and making them work the following 12 hours, because of screw up by someone above them.

And the fact that the American Apple executive admires it with the terms of flexibility and such.

[talsit]

IIRC, it wasn't a screw up. It was Jobs changing from a plastic to glass front panel at the last minute because his prototype scratched too easily.

[dba7dba]

That is a screw up.

[orionblastar]

Welcome to the computer industry. When I worked as a programmer I had to be called into work to fix something management screwed up in and forced to work extra hours for.

But yeah I see your point that the workers live in a dormitory environment and not paid much and woken up at the last minute to switch from plastic to glass.

My criticism of Apple, one criticism is using slave labor in China to make their phones and other devices. But then almost everyone does the same thing with China. You can't treat human beings that way as it causes stress and mental problems. Many burn out and that is why they have suicide nets installed. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103798/Revealed-Ins... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

[throwitaway1]

> forced to work extra hours for.

You're not forced to work extra hours. You can quit and find a better employer. What you don't understand is that in China workers from rural area can hardly choose where they want to work. They are not living in a free society. Please to compare you're situation to theirs.

[Bombthecat]

Wait a few years :)