[studentrob]

> If I file a lot of paperwork they get paid for dealing with it. If I scoff at a law, the city employees don't personally suffer.

This is a really narrow minded view of the role of a politician. Their job depends upon public satisfaction. If the public is not happy with what they do, they risk losing their job.

Elected officials are not making big bucks in overtime dealing with extra paperwork.

> The city has nothing to offer except to stop interfering and they win simply by dragging the process out.

This makes no sense. The city doesn't win by excluding businesses from operating, nor do the city officials. City officials win by doing what is in the interest of the public, and by sharing details with the public that they might not otherwise know. The same can be said of businesses and their PR efforts.

> Yes, they are incentivized to do it but those incentives don't align with the residents.

Balancing taxes, security, etc. is in the interest of residents. Taxes permit the government to pay for police, firemen, road construction, schools, etc. Security permits them to move freely without needing to focus much on that themselves.

> We could extract more money by raising your personal tax rate to 100% but while that would superficially help revenue it would ultimately hurt the community (you'll feel robbed by your neighbors) and the business climate in the city.

In balancing these there is a give and take. Setting one weight to 100% is not an option in a balanced equation.

> People already pay sales tax on Uber rides, and Uber (drivers) pay tax on gasoline, cars, etc. The city is already collecting at multiple points.

Yup I don't dispute that.

> They've shown that's not a concern with this nonsense over fingerprinting

You're overlooking the importance of perception. Facts are nothing on their own. How people interpret them is what counts. At the moment, the Austin public's perception is that fingerprinting is something that ride sharing services should do.

[EdHominem]

> Elected officials are not making big bucks in overtime dealing with extra paperwork.

The city is not the elected officials, it's the myriad workers who perform the day-to-day work. The city apparatus survives just fine even if the elected officials end up with egg on their face. Perhaps better.

> This is a really narrow minded view of the role of a politician. Their job depends upon public satisfaction. If the public is not happy with what they do, they risk losing their job.

If you screw up majorly at work, do you not risk losing your job? That's as it should be.

Wasting time and (apparently scarce) city money on propaganda and unreasonable demands seems like a good reason.

> City officials win by doing what is in the interest of the public,

You yourself point out that they win by being perceived to do that's in the interest of the public, not some hard to define "actual good".

> You're overlooking the importance of perception. Facts are nothing on their own. How people interpret them is what counts.

Enacting useless policies only helps their reelection campaign. Facts are everything, not nothing.

> Taxes permit the government to pay for [stuff]

And income is what lets a Lyft employee feed their family.

The city is already making more in tax since Uber and Lyft went in - from every taxable good and service they consume, and as trickle-down from their drivers' spending, etc. But that doesn't show up on the balance sheets with a politician's name next to it so its worthless to the people making these unreasonable demands.

> At the moment, the Austin public's perception is that fingerprinting is something that ride sharing services should do.

An idea it got from city officials why scrambled for something to do, not something useful to do.

It doesn't matter that Uber is safer than a cab, if you can't attach your name to that claim you're politically better off banning it.

[studentrob]

> The city is not the elected officials

The city is everyone, both elected officials and those who elected them. The elected officials represent the desires of the city whenever they were last elected.

> The city apparatus survives just fine even if the elected officials end up with egg on their face. Perhaps better.

Yes, this is exactly why we have a democratic republic and we don't referendum everything. It gives the public a chance to blame one individual rather than each other.

> If you screw up majorly at work, do you not risk losing your job? That's as it should be.

Of course. My point was that city employees do suffer when you scoff at the law. They risk losing their jobs. Many roles are appointed by the elected administration.

> Wasting time and (apparently scarce) city money on propaganda and unreasonable demands seems like a good reason.

The government spent money holding a referendum that potentially would have benefited U/L. You're certainly free to voice your concerns about how tax money is spent. The city, in my opinion, acted properly.

> not some hard to define "actual good".

Right, I didn't say "actual good", I said "interest of the public". That is another way of saying their desire, which is based on their perception of facts, not facts themselves. I don't believe in "actual good" or "objective morality". Perceptions are reality

> Enacting useless policies only helps their reelection campaign.

Enacting policies with which the public agrees helps them. It's a pretty simple equation. Politicians do not exercise any great mind control any more than U/L. Each holds their own sway, but ultimately the public decides themselves how to interpret facts.

> Facts are everything, not nothing.

I don't mean to say facts are useless. I mean that people can interpret them differently. One man's trash is another's treasure, that sort of thing. Some people love U/L, others have no need for it. Recognizing differences in people can help you build products, companies, run for office, etc.

> And income is what lets a Lyft employee feed their family.

For sure. I have very little stake in this issue. No U/L stock and I don't live in Austin. I'm merely American. My interest is it's interesting to discuss. Whether or not Austin makes tax money or U/L make profit, and all the ramifications associated with employment etc. make little difference to me.

> The city is already making more in tax since Uber and Lyft went in - from every taxable good and service they consume, and as trickle-down from their drivers' spending, etc.

That's wonderful.

> But that doesn't show up on the balance sheets with a politician's name next to it so its worthless

Again I'd say that's short sighted. People do care when a business leaves a city. Parents recognize the value of tax money, which goes towards keeping them and their young ones safe and educated.

> its worthless to the people making these unreasonable demands

Calling them unreasonable demands is your opinion. Another way of phrasing this is you think more than 50% of active Austin voters are unreasonable. I'd say that attitude is unlikely to help you build a business there or get someone elected.

> An idea it got from city officials why scrambled for something to do, not something useful to do.

Whether a person thinks private vs. government background checks is more useful is subjective. People voted on this. If U/L feels private checks without fingerprints are just as good as government ones, then they should share more information on this through their website.

Complaining about the decision made by Austin voters does little to help U/L at this point, particularly to me, since I'm not even a resident. Perhaps you also just find it interesting to discuss. Cheers!

[EdHominem]

> Of course. My point was that city employees do suffer when you scoff at the law. They risk losing their jobs. Many roles are appointed by the elected administration.

The workers at the DMV don't suffer, the meter readers don't suffer, etc.

If anyone does, it's the politician whose stupid ideas and lies wasted everyone's time and money. And that's a feature.

> Enacting policies with which the public agrees helps them. It's a pretty simple equation. Politicians do not exercise any great mind control any more than U/L. Each holds their own sway, but ultimately the public decides themselves how to interpret facts.

Cough. They use your tax money to send propaganda to you, lying about the facts. They abuse the presumption that they're working for the public to push their own agenda.

Uber and Lyft have fact on their side. And if they lied, they'd risk someone going to jail.

> Whether or not Austin makes tax money or U/L make profit, and all the ramifications associated with employment etc. make little difference to me.

You just spent time explaining that tax money can be used to buy services. I knew that, but figured you might be saying it because you didn't see the other side of the equation where untaxed wages can also be used to buy things...

> Calling them unreasonable demands is your opinion.

Only if you water words down until they don't mean anything.

The city's demands are for useless measures to fix an issue that already doesn't impact anyone, and the proposition is one they make money from.

> Another way of phrasing this is you think more than 50% of active Austin voters are unreasonable. I'd say that attitude is unlikely to help you build a business there or get someone elected.

No, I think the politicians are lying which confounds the issue. The people trust them and many or all may be mislead but that's not the same as thinking that each and every voter themselves is unreasonable.

> Whether a person thinks private vs. government background checks is more useful is subjective.

That's not the issue, that's the overton-window version. Worthless checks are worthless, no matter who does them.

> If U/L feels private checks without fingerprints are just as good as government ones, then they should share more information on this through their website.

As you say, it's not about facts. Engaging on the wrong issues merely settles the discussion around those issues.

> Complaining about the decision made by Austin voters does little to help U/L at this point

I'm not complaining, I think it's exactly what the city deserves for duplicitousness. Sometimes walking away from crazy people is all you can do.

[studentrob]

> I'm not complaining, I think it's exactly what the city deserves for duplicitousness

So you don't think Fasten or other competitors will be able to fill the gap? I'll be interested to follow developments.

> Sometimes walking away from crazy people is all you can do.

That's fine that you feel this way. I'd argue it hasn't been the path forward for businesses or governments when working with each other. U/L has a lot of business elsewhere so the decision to leave may not hurt them in the short term.

I understand better now how strongly you feel the city government is lying. I'm still not convinced that leaving Austin is the right way for U/L to get what they want.

Arguing that private background checks are just as effective as government fingerprint checks is a nuanced point of view. The public may have a hard time swallowing this one. Through their vote, they expressed more trust in the government's claim that fingerprint checks are more secure than private checks. Generally, people trust government security over private security. Apple staked a good part of its reputation challenging one part of this belief. They seem to have won, for now. U/L could also something extreme along those lines, walk away as you say, or try negotiating. They have several options

[EdHominem]

> Arguing that private background checks are just as effective as government fingerprint checks is a nuanced point of view.

No, it's not. In this case there's no risk (see the majority of areas where taxi drivers are not fingerprinted and the lack of rape epidemics) so there's no benefit to any mitigation strategy.

You'd receive just as much value from an anti-rape charm bracelet.

If there was a real problem you could actually analyze it, knowing what we know of rapists, and see how much of a barrier each type of countermeasure would provide. Not "nuanced" but fact-based.

> Through their vote, they expressed more trust in the government's claim that fingerprint checks are more secure than private checks.

The same government that paid to build fear over a non-existent rape epidemic paid to tell them that their solution was better.

If I hire an expert and that expert lies to me, yes I'd probably be fooled. But having fooled me doesn't somehow vindicate the expert. Even if Uber was banned by an actual popular vote it would be meaningless at this point.

[studentrob]

Are you in a debate club or something? I'm surprised this discussion has continued so long. This is one of the longer discussions I've ever had online. I'm impressed. If you're not already into debating, I'd recommend checking it out, you'd be great!

> But having fooled me doesn't somehow vindicate the expert

I never said it would vindicate anyone. I just said people make decisions based on their interpretation of facts, or their perception of reality. Since reality is always perceived through some lens, there is no objective reality. You are, of course, free to disagree.

The fact that interpretation and context impact our perception of facts is not a bad thing or a good thing. It's just a thing. When you're 7, and your parents tell you that skateboards are dangerous, you'll probably believe that for awhile. At age 10, you might see a friend riding a board while wearing pads. You might think that's pretty reasonable and change your mind. For those 3 years between 7-10, you stayed away because your parents kept telling you it's too dangerous. Adults aren't so different from kids. We don't have time for all these detailed messages from companies and politicians. Each news headline gets about 5 seconds of people's attention. People don't have time to read an article about every topic.