[shadowfiend]

The problem here isn't asserting that businesses and corporations exist to make money.

It's asserting that they only exist to make money. Or that that is in any way natural.

For a company to focus entirely on making money when they don't have enough money to operate is, let's say, understandable. But since companies are run by humans, and humans are quite adept at balancing different goals at the same time, it's not at all beyond reason to expect a company that is making money hand over fist to also focus on more than just that. It's not at all bad to judge them if they choose not to do that, nor to consider them worse than other companies that both make money hand over fist and choose to focus on more than just making more money.

It is in no way inconsistent to work at a for-profit company and complain that another company only exists to make money. Even if you are the chief executive of a for-profit company that both makes money and has additional goals beyond that, you aren't being inconsistent. But if you aren't the chief executive? If you are an employee whose day-to-day job actually isn't directly to make money, even if it is, somewhere above you, being guided by that goal? That doesn't even come close to inconsistent, IMO.

Most businesses are making money. That's not the same as being all about making money. Confusing the two is a really good way to discount the companies who manage perfectly well to make money without losing their souls to that goal[1].

[1] - I'm not really saying Oracle is one of these companies; I've never worked for them or interacted with them (though I've heard plenty of tales). I'm taking issue with the broader statement, because I think it's a fundamentally problematic lens to view the world through.

[simula67]

Both of you may be right. The company exists to make money for the shareholders. But to make money for shareholders it has to treat its customers well, it has to treat its employees well, it has to treat its partners well and it has to obey all the laws. Management who value these things are often referred to as having 'high levels of integrity'.

Good shareholders should look for management exhibiting high levels of integrity. Like Warren Buffet said :

"In looking for people to hire, you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy. And if you don’t have the first, the other two will kill you. If you hire somebody without [integrity], you really want them to be dumb and lazy."

At least in the public's eye, Oracle has lost the perception of having any integrity.

[TheOtherHobbes]

>But to make money for shareholders it has to treat its customers well, it has to treat its employees well, it has to treat its partners well and it has to obey all the laws.

Sadly not. One of the tragedies of capitalism is that it's much easier to run a profitable business by sharking everyone than by being a good citizen.

The optimal ethical position for profit is not the same as the optimal abstract ethical position.

This is why markets are a bad thing. If profit is your only measure of morality, you don't have a working mechanism to protect you - and everyone - from choices that produce short-term gains but long-term disasters.

[arcticfox]

> This is why markets are a bad thing.

... well, that's extreme. The ownership of the company should be working to avoid long term disaster. In most industries this happens all the time.

Actually, some of the main instances they don't (financial industry) is because of government support. If you're allowed to fail and get bailed out, then there's no reason to avoid disaster.

[tremon]

The company exists to make money for the shareholders

Actually, that should be circumstantial. The primary reason for a business to exist is because it provides value to its customers. If the value provided (and monetized) is more than the business' operating costs, it gets to continue to exist.

Shareholders are an artifact of unnatural growth, not a fundamental property of business.

[saiya-jin]

those are some strong assumptions. people don't start companies to serve others, and if by any chance they won't lose money but actually earn something that would be nice.

maybe that's the world you would like to see, and maybe one day we will have it, but it's not the world we currently live in.

why is it so hard for some to accept that money is, overall, by far the strongest motivation force out there? Remove it, and >95% of population will not show up for their crappy work next day. it might not be the best motivator overall and has some drawbacks, but it works so far surprisingly well and we came to this situation by long evolution.

[Angostura]

> why is it so hard for some to accept that money is, overall, by far the strongest motivation force out there?

Because the evidence is circumstantial at best. Money, is of course important. But the strongest motivator? Not for many people.

[saiya-jin]

ok, then do that test of removing salary, indefinitely. since it's not the strongest motivator, maybe secondary one, most would still come, right? now how many would show up next day?

[arcticfox]

I agree that taking extremes is a useful tool, but this isn't the best example.

What if you took away 100% of people's time off? No weekends, no evenings? Nobody is coming back to that either.

[tremon]

Basic income is a great way to test that, yes.

[jlarocco]

> It's asserting that they only exist to make money. Or that that is in any way natural.

There are plenty of companies that exist to make money and have additional goals.

But, gigantic, publicly traded corporations don't fall into that category, and they exist exclusively to make money. If they tell you otherwise, their PR people are trying to fool you.

I'm also tempted to say a business whose number one goal isn't making money for its owner and employees should probably be registered as a non-profit or a charity or something else, and not a corporation, but I guess there's no reason they couldn't be a corporation.

[thaumasiotes]

> I'm also tempted to say a business whose number one goal isn't making money for its owner and employees should probably be registered as a non-profit or a charity or something else, and not a corporation, but I guess there's no reason they couldn't be a corporation.

Um, what does "corporation" mean to you? Can you identify anything that you would call a "non-profit" that is not also a corporation?

[ajdlinux]

To many people "corporation" == "for-profit corporation", even though that's definitely not true with the standard legal definitions of "corporation".

[andrewaylett]

At least in the UK, there's the concept of an unincorporated association. The one I chair is definitely non-profit, and (not being incorporated) we're not a corporation.

[pron]

You're right. I think many people in tech today are not used to Oracle's old-school style. They've become accustomed to companies like Google and Facebook that want to make money and collect as much private information about as many people as possible; they want money and unlimited power. Or companies like Google and Apple that want your money and your mind, that, like Big Brother, are not content just having power over you; they want power over you and your love. That a company would just want your money but not your love and allegiance, or that it wants your money without also trying to brainwash you or spy after you indeed seems strange these days.

BTW, I agree with the idea that companies shouldn't only be about making money, but also care about other things, like the welfare of their employees. But companies like that are virtually nonexistent among America's tech giants.

[low_battery]

Really? Oracle the old school angel versus brainwashing big brother spying evil corporations.

[Natsu]

I don't read GP post as a defense of Oracle. And I say that as someone who fully expects Oracle to build a slot into their servers that you can feed POs to in order to fill it back up when the cash sunk into it is running low.

[pron]

Oracle is no angel; I'm not aware of any altruistic -- or even non-solely-egotistic American tech megacorp. But I do prefer their brand of old-school evil (unbridled greed; we'll sue you into compliance) over Google's (we're going to spy on you and collect data on you and you're going to love us) or Apple's (we'll turn our customers into religious fanatics, who don't just pay us but also worship us).