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by bko 3674 days ago
Subprime lending == bad

Extending credit to lower-income borrowers == good

Are we just talking about price (interest) here? You may not like the price, but prices exist for a reason and cannot be changed by diktat. Who gets prime vs a subprime lease isn't determined by some ethnicity or the religious sect someone belongs in. It's determined by the risk and size of the loan. Smaller loans have relatively higher fixed costs, driving up the up front fees or interest rate. They are also harder to recover and may have a lower residual value, all factors that go into determining the risk. People with little or bad credit history are also more likely to default. This isn't controversial.

What's the alternative? Stop extending credit to risky borrowers? Force lenders to lend to risky borrowers at subsidized rates funded by tax dollars or through coercion?

[Edit] What I particularly don't like about these articles is the obfuscation of financial matters. For instance,

> After dropping $250 up front for her lease of a 2015 Honda Civic, she pays $160 a week to Xchange. If she keeps the car for the full three-year term, she’ll end up paying Uber $25,210. The Kelley Blue Book fair purchase price for a new 2015 Honda Civic SE in Los Angeles is $18,142.

> Schmitt said she’ll need to pay Uber $5,000 or so more to buy the car if she wants to keep it at the end of her lease.

So basically, she's getting a $18,142 (PV) car paying $160 (PMT) a week for 156 weeks (N) and have to pay 5,000 at the end to keep the car (-FV).

PV: 18,142

PMT: -160

N: 160

FV: -5000

I (weekly) -> 0.1942% (weekly)

I (annual) -> 1.001942^52 - 1 ->10.615%

So basically she got a loan at 10%. Also, you have to factor in that she has an option to purchase which she can choose to exercise. I don't know why they don't just say as much.

4 comments

> What's the alternative? Stop extending credit to risky borrowers? Force lenders to lend to risky borrowers at subsidized rates funded by tax dollars or through coercion?

This seems to be a lot of people's answer. There's this weird claim that payday loans and bad car loans and similar are caused by "greed!" when the companies making them are operating at tiny profit margins. High default rates dictate high prices (which forms a vicious cycle, but that can only be broken from the outside).

The most 'predatory' thing about most bad-credit loans is the fee/repossession system, which tends to be sloppy and abusive because the borrowers are too broke to fight it. Uber has sidestepped that almost completely with a no-consequence termination scheme.

The push to ban or cripple access to low income loans can really only be justified in two ways. One is that these loans are somehow corrupt, but we're not talking about balloon mortgages here - these companies are dealing with principal-agent problems like the home lenders were, and they don't have profit margins to give up. The second is that low-income people are too dumb to make good decisions, so they take these loans. It's a patronizing stance that shouldn't pretend to be uncontroversial.

Actually new subprime auto loans install a device that allows the lender to disable and locate the car remotely (obviously not while in use). So repossession is a lot easier (and presumably less sloppy) compared to the alternative and is part of the reason subprime auto rates have fell over the years. Lenders don't want to repossess as they are in the business of charging interest, not in selling pre-owned cars. They only repossess at last resort. Going after missed payments is also very expensive, especially given the small amounts.
> There's this weird claim that payday loans and bad car loans and similar are caused by "greed!" when the companies making them are operating at tiny profit margins. High default rates dictate high prices (which forms a vicious cycle, but that can only be broken from the outside).

You don't need payday loans when your government provides proper social safety nets, and labor regulations that allow you to earn a living wage.

Payday loans are simply a symptom of the problem.

> So basically she got a loan at 10%. Also, you have to factor in that she has an option to purchase which she can choose to exercise. I don't know why they don't just say as much.

That's the weirdest part of me. People who drive for a living can and will put on 30k+ miles a year on a car. If they used this car for Uber work for the full three years as a driver, you probably wouldn't want the car anyway! It would make more sense to lease a new one to continue working for Uber or if you move on from Uber trigger the two week end lease policy and buy a new car. Or trigger the two week end policy and move into a car you financed under your own power.

You capture my feelings, too.

I don't think all rates should be the same; the risks of default should be priced in to the finance or lease rate.

I agree "predatory == bad", so perhaps we could devise a system to (try to) ensure that the hit that subprime borrowers are taking is commensurate with the risk the lenders take. But arguably this is already done through competition (in lending in general, not specifically with this one-lease-company-only arrangement via Uber).

Maybe you can say we as a society should 'protect' subprime borrowers by banning lease/finance rates that are more than x% more than the best rate, and you tell sub-prime borrowers who don't meet the criteria, "too bad". But then lenders would game it by not lending to the best credit folks in order to extend down to the truly sub-prime.

Or it might flatten the rate spread between prime and subprime. Maybe this isn't an entirely bad thing; well-qualified buyers take a slight hit in order to subsidize those who are down on their luck. But then another lender comes along with better prime rates, and everyone who can swing it goes there.

Personally, I'm not really a fan of telling people they can't make their own financial decisions because "it's bad for you". Isn't this the opposite of what basic income proponents say? That we should let people be free to make their own decisions? We hear over and over that poor people make bad financial decisions (with the anecdata to support it... and some ACTUAL data and scientific research).. but there's also lots of data showing that people are best left to make their own decisions rather than some 'helpful' government scheme/program/regulation.

A few disconnected thoughts:

It is worth noting that without the current low interest rate environment, subprime loans would be a lot more expensive or just wouldn't not exist.

There certainly is a balance of responsibilities both among the borrower and the lender. Presumably the lender is the most educated of the two parties, especially in a sub prime situation where the borrower may not even be at a high school math level.

Lenders should not expect to be able to give extend unlimited amounts of capital and use a taxpayer funded legal system to recover it. Bankruptcy on the borrowers side is definitely a very important tool to keeping things somewhat fair. Most young people now see what a catastrophe that can cause in the case of student loans, a whole generation or two facing a very grim financial future short of massive inflation or winning the lottery.

Nothing is perfect and I imagine solutions will introduce their own downsides. Future car use probably won't even be a loan or a lease but rather a license to use a vehicle at a given time. That system could apply to a lot more than vehicles 10 years from now.

"Most young people now see what a catastrophe that can cause in the case of student loans, a whole generation or two facing a very grim financial future short of massive inflation or winning the lottery."

The problem with student loans is that you can't bankruptcy them out of existence.

> The problem with student loans is that you can't bankruptcy them out of existence.

This is a pervasive myth, but, while they are harder to discharge than most other unsecured debt, they can be discharged in bankruptcy.