[nostrebored]

Wow, this is extremely condescending with no actual backing information.

The fact of the matter is, people make bad choices. People who make bad choices are more likely to be poor. Lack of impulse control is extremely prevalent in poor communities. Like the GP, I was poor, I know poor people, and 95% of them are just shit at thinking long term.

The educational system fails people sure, but why does that mean we should give $1200/mo to people who do not have the necessary discipline to use it appropriately? CCTs have been used extremely effectively, and do combat this problem on a structural level.

There is actually a huge lack of skilled professionals in blue collar fields. We import mechanics at a ridiculous rate. This is true throughout a large portion of the world -- a SKILLED mechanic in Mexico can earn roughly the same wage as a skilled mechanic in the U.S...

It is hard to support your basic needs because you need to budget appropriately and you don't have extra money to spend -- but a large portion of poor people spend it anyway. I can't tell you how many of the people I know will drop $30 on some alcohol, drugs, club cover, concert, when they know that they'll be struggling to pay rent at the end of the month.

If you're actually an engineer you'll realize that most problems are multi-faceted and flat out telling people who have lived in a situation that some poorly researched secondhand analysis (i.e. the joke that is modern Sociology) is more relevant is absurd.

[ssmoot]

> The fact of the matter is, people make bad choices. People who make bad choices are more likely to be poor. Lack of impulse control is extremely prevalent in poor communities. Like the GP, I was poor, I know poor people, and 95% of them are just shit at thinking long term.

This is true of most Americans and is incredibly condescending. The poor are better with the money they do have than the middle class by a huge margin IME. The poor by and large don't blow their money on "fine dining" or new cars. They change their own oil. They don't spend over $100/month on cable TV packages. You can find exceptions to all those of course, but they prove the rule IME.

[nostrebored]

You're right, they blow their money on not-so-fine dining (my poor friends think McDonalds is cheaper than "Real Food").

Saying that it's true of most Americans obscures the systemic problem of scratch-offs and 40s on the weekend. And there is clearly a difference when you're doing these things with disposable income and doing it when you do not have disposable income -- one indicates a problem, and I don't think that it's an economic one.

[ssmoot]

I know middle income people spending their money on craft beer on the weekend and not participating in their company 401K. Or living effectively paycheck to paycheck. They may have "disposable" income, but only in the sense that they can float emergency spending on credit.

So yeah, there's a difference, but it's one of privilege.

Bad long-term financial decisions aren't exclusive to the poor.

You grew up poor. That doesn't mean your new middle-class peers had to learn the same lessons you did. They aren't middle class because they're smarter, more disciplined or have a better work ethic. They're middle class because they were born middle class.

Wanting to improve class mobility is one thing. Blaming the poor for not doing so on their own is another.

[home_boi]

By "being born middle class" you mean that they were taught skills that allow them to be a contributing and self sustaining member of society.

Life isn't fair but those skills can be individually learned.

[ssmoot]

No. I don't. I mean that they had the most important safety net of all: Family with the will and ability to help financially.

I'm genuinely curious what financial life lessons you think a middle class kid is learning that a poor kid doesn't understand at a much deeper level.

My own experience is that (some) middle class kids succeed despite their own failures (dropping college classes before the grade becomes part of record stands out in my mind), and then attribute their success to their superior work ethic and intellect.

If most poor people fail to move up the class ladder, then in their same situation you're just as likely to fail. It's either that, or believe yourself somehow innately superior. I can't really think of a third option. It's like the adage about being surrounded by assholes.

You're right. Life isn't fair. But that doesn't mean the person cleaning my house isn't entitled to financial stability. I'm not religious, but I can't think of a secular version of "but for the grace of God".

[Goronmon]

Wow, this is extremely condescending with no actual backing information.

The person being responded to provided no actual backing information either.