[Frozenlock]

>Are you implying here that curiosity and intellectual abilities are genetically inheritable ?

Intelligence as we can measure it (IQ) is highly related to genetics (so you can say inheritable). IQ is correlated to 0.86 in case of twins raised in the same family, or 0.76 in twins raised appart.

> If so, what stops eugenics from being morally indefensible ?

Nothing!

I myself have spinal muscular atrophy and know that my children could have a chance of having it if the mother is carrier of the bad gene. It would be wise for me to chose someone who isn't a carrier (or even undergo a gene therapy, once it will be available).

Why do you think eugenics is indefensible? Because some people were sterilized in the name of it? That's only one approach. You could also have eugenics designed to increase the number of 'quality' people. Say, for example, giving money to people with an IQ higher than 150 to make more children. Or those with amazing athletics skills, or amazing beauty... I don't care at this point, it's only for the sake of the argument.

You could also say that eugenics increases the chances of your children finding a quality mate, because they are more numerous when the state is subsidizing them.

Anyhow, we are animals and our evolution follows the same rules as all the other species. If we don't purposefully decide where our evolution will bring us, nature will do it for us. Without any external fitness function, those who can reproduce the most will be the evolutionary winners. Ask yourself: are those taking care of establishing a good career and establishing a solid financial foundation the ones with the most children?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBqjZ0KZCa0

Again, we are animals. We are subject to the same rules. If we decide to ignore them, our children will pay the price.

[my_first_acct]

There are a number of things we can do to increase society's collective IQ, without resorting to selective breeding.

1) Prevent brain damage: Ensure that all children receive adequate nutrition, and eliminate exposure to toxins such as lead.

2) Make sure every child is educated up to his or her full potential.

3) Provide access to contraceptives, so that children are born only to people who feel themselves ready to be parents.

[qb45]

> You could also have eugenics designed to increase the number of 'quality' people. Say, for example, giving money to people with an IQ higher than 150 to make more children. Or those with amazing athletics skills, or amazing beauty...

And have a world full of Aspergers and Schizos (correlated with IQ) or some giant mutants unable to survive the next asteroid strike. I hope you get the point - we have no idea what we are doing.

[gwern]

> Schizos (correlated with IQ)

Schizophrenia may (or may not) correlate on the phenotype level, but genetically, they are inverses. Genetic risk for schizophrenia lowers IQ in GCTAs, genetic correlation, and family studies. If you select for intelligence, you will get less schizophrenia, and if you select against schizophrenia, you will get more intelligence.

[qb45]

Good catch. I'm not sure where I got this idea that schizophrenia is more likely to develop in high-IQ individuals, but that's what I thought.

[mercer]

I don't know about Schizophrenia, but I think a world with more high-IQ people with Asperger's wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

I mean, I'm not a proponent of the (semi-serious?) thought that "aspies are the next step in human evolution", but since I was diagnosed myself recently, I've found myself imagining what such a world would be like every once in a while...

Anyways, I'm all in favor of some forms of 'eugenics' as our knowledge about the effects increase. We've been helping our own evolution along for quite a while now, so I don't see why tinkering with our genes should somehow be completely off-limits.

[wbl]

You say that like being an Aspie is bad. Of course IQ genes don't as far as we know have bad side effects. It seems Fischerian, and actually uncorrected to ASD.

[jschwartzi]

A lot of people say "Aspie" when they really just mean "socially mal-adjusted turbo nerd." It happens that lots of smart people are generally nice and can read a room. You just don't hear about them because they aren't constantly talking about their IQ.

[qb45]

Did somebody really manage to isolate some "IQ genes" and demonstrate that just changing them makes one dumber or smarter with no other effects?

[Frozenlock]

Sure, but it's not like we can just sit on our hands and wait until we are 100% sure of what we could do; the welfare state is already selecting for us. And in my experience, most people are opposed to getting rid of the welfare state.

This means that the choice is not "eugenic or do nothing", it's "eugenic or dysgenic".

[qb45]

Welfare states seem to depopulate recently so if it's true that they produce "unfit" people, they are harming more themselves than anybody else.

[burfog]

This is a short-term effect, and you have the fitness function backwards.

The portion of the population that takes action to avoid living in squalor is unfit because they fail to reproduce well enough for replacement. Meanwhile, the portion of the population that fails to avoid squalor is breeding in a most exponential way. That portion was historically kept in check by death, but now has been unleashed.

So one type of person is on the way to extinction, and another type is growing without bound. Currently this means the the total population (both groups together) is shrinking, but that will change.