[darawk]

The DAO exists outside of the laws of the United States. If the US curators are arrested, they will be replaced with non-US residents.

This is the fundamental premise of decentralized systems. They are resilient to the interventions of governments. Bitcoin is definitely illegal in many places in the world, and occupies something of a gray area in the US. Yet, it operates just fine.

[zekevermillion]

The "dao" here is not designed in a way that is truly decentralized. It is susceptible to certain centralizing flaws. There could be a dao that is designed in a way that resists censorship, that would be more interesting.

[bunkydoo]

You've obviously never heard of extradition have you?

[darawk]

No country is going to extradite one of its own citizens for selling a financial product that doesn't happen to be approved by the US SEC and isn't a ponzi scheme / scam (the DAO may be a lot of things, but it is likely not an explicit confidence scheme). Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason.

[zekevermillion]

But I am speaking exactly of the scenario where a dao project curator/contractor is perpetrating a financial crime. In that case, most countries would in fact extradite. If that's even necessary. I mention US laws not b/c I'm in favor of US imperialism but b/c I am familiar with these laws. I'm sure that there are other relevant jurisdictions that would frown upon financial crimes regardless of new age window dressing.

[darawk]

I don't think it's clear that the DAO represents a 'financial crime'. Especially not on the part of the curators. It is an unregulated, unlicensed investment vehicle, but it's certainly not predatory, and especially not on the part of the curators (who are the only arrestable individuals).

[zekevermillion]

The problem as I see it is that a curator could be affiliated with a contractor, and the same person could also hold a large stake of tokens. At some point the dao is not truly decentralized, and the parties with the power to influence voting decisions for their own benefit do not disclose this conflict.

[darawk]

Ya that's certainly a possibility. Of course, in such a situation, the curator could be fired. However, you face the same issue in any publicly traded corporation, but with even less recourse for the shareholders.

Don't get me wrong, even though i'm invested in the DAO a bit, I fully expect there will be serious disasters like this along the way. I'm not blind to how overwhelmingly likely it is that at least some people will run off with at least some of the money they get. But I do think these issues will get shaken out over time. And then we'll simply be left with: is it a good idea to let the wisdom of crowds make investment decisions? (also, likely the answer here is an emphatic: no, but it'll be interesting to find out).

[gst]

I don't know about the law of other countries, but my home country (Austria) does not extradite its own citizens, no matter what the crime is. However, it is possible that you end up in front of an Austrian court, even if you commited the crime in another country. This will only happen in cases where the crime is actually a crime in Austria. Furthermore, the court will use Austrian law, so US law would be quite irrelevant in that case.

There might be an exception when the extradition request is issued by an EU country, but I'm not sure how this would be handled. Afaik the EU requires member states to extradite citizens and non-citizens to other member states. However, (afaik) the law that prevents Austria from extraditing its own nationals is at the constitution level.

[cplease]

Austrian citizens are subject to arrest and direct surrender to other EU states under execution of a European Arrest Warrant without extradition, since 2002. See http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A3...

Austria did reserve the limited possibility of refusing enforcement of EAWs on its citizen for acts not punishable under Austrian law, but that's it; which is not much different from the optional non-execution provision available to all EU states.

It also has bilateral extradition treaties with other non-EU states including the USA, again, with some reservations for its own citizens. But to say Austria doesn't extradite its citizens is wrong. For most crimes, any other EU state can issue a warrant and have Austrian citizens arrested and summarily removed without any full-blown extradition proceeding.

[gst]

That's why I mentioned that I'm not sure about extradition to other EU countries. Extradition of its own citizens to other non-EU countries is currently not possible.

The law for this is "§ 12 ARHG Verbot der Auslieferung österreichischer Staatsbürger" which is part of the Austrian constitution: http://www.jusline.at/12_Verbot_der_Auslieferung_%C3%B6sterr...

https://books.google.com/books?id=0H5XqvUu3B4C provides an English explanation of that law:

1173. Extradition of Austrian nationals is not admissible pursuant to Article 12, paragraph 1 of the ARHG. The authorities mentioned that this provision has the rank of a constitutional provision and, as such, requires a 2/3 majority of Parliament to be amended. Nevertheless, as of January 1, 2009, Austria will be in a position to extradite its own nationals to other EU-Member States in accordance with Section 5 EU-JZG.

1174. Where extradition for ML is denied on the sole ground of nationality, the Austrian courts are competent under Article 65, paragraph 1, no. 1 of the StGB (jurisdiction over acts committed by Austrians abroad) and must conduct the proceedings in the same way as for any other criminal offense under national law. The Austrian courts also have explicit jurisdiction over terrorist acts and terrorist financing when the perpetrator is Austrian (Article 64, paragraph 1, nos. 9 and 10 of the StGB).

[ubernostrum]

Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason.

Try setting up a business in one of them and let me know how you like the environment.

[darawk]

You're missing the point. The DAO does not care about the business climate of any particular country. The curators can reside in any country in the world and finance any company anywhere in the world.

[ubernostrum]

So, set up in a repressive place with no extradition to the US, and see how well the "we operate under magical Internet law, it means you can't touch us" defense works there.

[darawk]

Are you serious? Take a look around eastern europe. Take a look at international pharmacies that ship prescription drugs into the US. Take a look at chinese labs that ship research chemicals (recreational drugs) into the US.

There are tons of examples of this happening in practice, in the real world, right now. All you have to do is look.

[aminok]

The US doesn't rule the world (yet).

[zekevermillion]

We don't and never will. Does that mean that US law is irrelevant? From from it.

[gst]

Yes - US law is pretty irrelevant for most people who live outside the US and who don't do business with the US.

How relevant is China's law for an US citizen who doesn't leave the country?

[aminok]

US law is not applicable in some countries, because they maintain independence from the US legal system.