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by rhino369 3686 days ago
One for one replacement is a flaw, but also it doesn't take into account that efficiency often times leads to more work being done.

Like accountants. Excel and other software resolved a ton of their work. You didn't see a collapse in the number accountants. They just crunch more numbers, do more analysis.

uber made taxi's more efficient and I now ride in one 10X as often.

>We're seeing this in the more advanced law firms. What used to take a senior attorney, a few junior attorneys, a large number of paralegals, and a big clerical staff can now be done by one attorney, one paralegal, and a lot of software and databases. The OECD study claims that the risk to people with high levels of education is almost nil. Ask any newly graduated lawyer trying to get a job.

Software has barely put any lawyers out of a job. There have been staff cuts but that is more because babyboomer and older attorneys didn't know to word process. WordPerect (and now Word) are the reason legal secretaries are a dying profession. GenX and Millenial attorneys find it easier to it themselves.

Like accountants, a lot of this increased efficiency just leads to doing more work to make the end product better. You used to have research cases in books. This sounds inefficient, but it's actually not that bad. The book sellers summarize and catalog cases. You look up the issue and see what cases there are, read them and that is that.

Now, it's all done in digital databases. But it's not really faster. The digital databases still require a person to read the case, summarize, and catalog it. But it also allows you to read cases that weren't published. So it's now possible to find better cases, but you gotta spend the time reading it. So instead of spending an hour to get 10 cases sort on point, you have access to every case. But it takes well over an hour to get the perfect case. You get the better case, but you spent more time. Maybe you'd need a team of 50 lawers to find that case in the 1970s, but nobody would actually do that.

Ross--that startup claiming to be an AI lawyer--is spamming legal news with press releases vaguely claiming it can do all of that instantaneously. I sincerely doubt it. There is a reason they don't have a demo on their website.

The only software that I know that is doing what I'd consider legal work is the machine learning applied to document review--called predictive coding. But even that is only a response to the massive amount of information generated in digital offices. Workplaces produce many times more emails and documents than they did 40 years ago. E-discover exploded in the late 90's and early 2000's.

And even that work had already been outsourced to contractors who hired reviewers--often in India--to do the big projects. It's reduced some legal jobs, but only jobs that were created by technology. You can't apply the machine learning to smaller sets of documents since there isn't enough data to learn from.

The reason the legal market crashed in 2008 is because the M&A stopped and because those mortgage backed securities required a ton of legal work. And then the overall recession made companies sensitive to legal bills.

Newly graduated lawyers had a hard time finding a job even when the market for corporate lawyers was hot. Because tons of schools opened up law schools to cash in. They flooded the market with people who had no business being a lawyer. Even in 2005, the median law grad made less money than a programmer.

edit: wow I really ranted here. embarassing. I'm actually putting off doing document review because it's boring. I wish I had an AI that could do it for me.

3 comments

I just realised that I plagiarised most of your points in another comment before reading yours.

The lawyer industry as it is, is I think a form of archaism. In most transactions there is zero justification to custom make a contract. Most sales of houses and businesses have exactly the same terms and the only reason you need lawyers to read and customize contracts is because other lawyers customized contracts previously and someone has to do the due dilligence of figuring out what they did. I am sure you could design a robust legal system with simple laws, where citizen do not need an expert to understand their rights and obligations, and where everyone would use standardised contracts for the quasi totality of transactions.

In fact it is a bit shocking that a common citizen cannot possibly understand the hundreds of thousands of pages of law and jurisprudence they he is required to comply with and needs to pay (dearly) an expert to do that for him.

What about neota logic ? they seem to build pretty capable software for legal.

Also, as for your claim that "works fills the available time", what about competition, new models of billing(fixed-fee), etc ?

I'm not sure what Neota Logic does. Looks like it's a best practices guide prepared by Litter Mendelson turned into software.

This could be a good example of advancements creating more work. My firm does a ton of employment law advising. My coworker in that department is always bitching about HR workers in her clients organization making dumb legal choices on their own. This software is designed for that sort of thing. The HR drones will instead use this software instead of their intuition. And I'm willing to bet this drives legal work when the HR drones run into issues that aren't clear (much of the law has no clear answer). Before the HR people wouldn't even know they had a legal issue to talk about.

Nobody was ever paying 500 dollars an hour to a firm to ask general compliance questions. In fact, compliance work is generally not considered legal work. They had an HR person making their choices before, not a lawyer.

Though I think my firm sometimes prepare best practice guides for clients. I'm not entirely sure if they are paying it, but I suspect they do. So maybe that software would reduce that sort of work.

>Also, as for your claim that "works fills the available time", what about competition, new models of billing(fixed-fee), etc ?

You'd think it would have a bigger impact, but we see this in many industries over a long time. Clothing got cheaper, and now we own a lot more clothes.

It's really shocking how much lawyers get away with charging based on how many unemployed and underemployed lawyers there are. I think it's partially because a lawyer is only worth something when they are experienced, and unemployed lawyers never get experience.

but also the value of legal work is really hard to objectively value. I can't even tell if the quality of work actually pays real world dividends.

>> I'm not sure what Neota Logic does. Looks like it's a best practices guide prepared by Litter Mendelson turned into software.

As i understand , it lets lawyers decode their logic/thinking into the software, so you get more than a best-practice guide(assuming best practice guides are like what we have in software) - because to build a full best practice guide that includes all the corner cases and the fine details, etc is just not practical(too much to read, you'll need an expert anyway).

But once you can gather information from the client(in a branching logic kind of way), you can create detailed advice that's very focused to the client's exact problem, and that usually offer much higher value - if you do it well.

>> (much of the law has no clear answer)

So many decisions in law are probability based ? the lawyer knows that doing X has 90% chance of being OK and 10% of being not OK (roughly) depending on corner cases or how laws will be interpreted in the future, etc - and builds a plan upon that, taking risks into account ?

Because maybe neota supports probabilistic logic, not sure. But for example i know some medical expert system software do us that.

>> Clothing got cheaper, and now we own a lot more clothes.

We probably consume more of most things, and yet employment in some sectors decreased.

>> I can't even tell if the quality of work actually pays real world dividends.

So selling is key. And probably risk reduction is key.Right ?

Computers have a pretty good track record doing risky stuff in a safer way and handling complexity, because humans make mistakes, and are limited with regards to complexity. It could be a big selling point once legal software matures.

I work in a bank and we regularly pay for legal opinions or advice on whether something we are thinking to do is legal or compliant with the laws and regulations. Are you referring to something else when you say compliance work?
It's ok Mr Rhino.

I come here primarily for the rants :-)

You learn interesting things and it sparks ideas.

Rant on Mr Rhino!