[pgeorgi]

I prefer the reference letter system over the personal references system popular in the US because the letter decouples you from former employers.

They don't get calls every time you're in talks with a recruiter. The amount of information that's passed along is standardized (even if it's a weird standard, but see below) and better controlled.

It's possible to request interim reports, and when doing it semi-regularly (every two years, say), it doesn't provide signal to current employers about you intending to leave or not.

As for the peculiar language, that was quite the talk in the 90s when this scheme was "uncovered" by the media. By now, people generally know what to expect, while HR is typically aware if a letter is written "in code" or not (and have no problem if it's not).

More than the "code", these letters can also refer to more concrete traits, so the best course of action with the reference letter is often to write it yourself, have your manager sign off on it and get the HR stamp of approval. That way it states what _you_ think is important, not what the manager sees, or the even more remote HR department.

(source: have German HR folks in the family who explained the reference letter business to me, starting when the "code" fluff flared up in the media for the first time. also did some clerical work in HR in the distant past)

[nraynaud]

In France you have a certificate of employment, "that guy was employed from that date to that date, for this job, and he leaves with/without strings attached" (non-competes, etc.)

No judgement of valor, no personal stuff, it confirms the dates, the name of the company and the job title (be careful if you have been promoted internally without your official title adjusted).

[nraynaud]

I might have given the wrong impression: at my current job in France, I'm hired by a very corporate guy who spent years working at the State owned energy company, and he required some telephone references and some tests at an external head hunter. My guess is that corporate France still likes to use the Downton Abbey method, but at previous startups it was more about resumé, interviews and actual written code.

[pyrale]

Contacting former employers or talking about your former employees to a prospective employer is illegal in France. Although it's hard to prove, when they don't ask you directly to give contacts away.

[tokenadult]

Contacting former employers or talking about your former employees to a prospective employer is illegal in France.

The law is different here in the United States, of course, and in most countries. I wonder how much of the slow economic growth and high unemployment in France is connected to this information-denying and thus efficiency-frustrating law?

[Bartweiss]

I'm skeptical that it makes a huge difference. After all, US employers are pretty cautious about giving real information when contacted - the questions may be legal, but you can still get sued over the answers. Most of the "real" information in either setting flows informally.

It can't help, but it's hard to imagine that's anywhere near the top of France's legislative issues.

[pyrale]

You realize that these same laws were in place when economic condition were different, right ?

On a more general note, I would to reconsider your appreciation about France, and in general, about countries which work differently from yours. Unemployment in France is a huge social impediment, but I don't believe it has nearly as much effects on the economy as you think it has.

One of the reasons for it is that jobless people are low-productivity, low-qualification which, if employed, would not contribute significantly to our economy. Also by increasing work price, pressure is created on companies to improve work efficiency. I wouldn't say there is a strong connection, but UK's productivity puzzle has been conjectured to be linked with zero-hour jobs.

[nraynaud]

I don't think it plays a role it would more be a level playing field if they were not using schools and diplomas as a signal for employment.

A lot of people agree that our main problem is that our managers are shit while our engineers are ok.

[nraynaud]

I did ask my former bosses first, and asked them to give the right speech calibrated for the job posting. I think it's the last time I go through this process, because the job is not worth the effort, neither in personal fulfillment nor in salary, at least I tried the "startup by the corporate guy" route.

[derefr]

Thinking about this, that's basically equivalent to, in America, handing out your American W2 tax forms instead of references. The forms give a duration for which each company had you on payroll, plus a separation code (layoff, quit, fired with/without cause) if you're no longer there.

Sure, they also show how much you were being paid, but presumably you could wait until after a salary negotiation to hand these over.

[junto]

One other oddity in the German system that doesn't side to be mentioned in these comments, is that every CV or "Lebenslauf" requires a professional looking headshot photo to be attached. I'm not sure if it is an absolute requirement, out just a general expectation, but I've always found that very strange.