[tajen]

I need help in argumenting: What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP, apart from the former being from the XXth century. Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists?

Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part.

[lumberjack]

>Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists?

Not at all. The only time the WTO interacted with my native country it was to "gently" push for privitisation of state assets all of which have turned out to be disastrous deals for our country. Not even the economic liberals I know think highly of the WTO.

[caoilte]

> What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP

WTO was about import tariffs.

TTIP seems to be mostly about de-regulation and legal harmonisation.

PR flaks are counting on the good will that people have towards free trade to allow them to squeeze through a treaty that surrenders democratic sovereignty to multi-national corporation stuffed courts and tribunals.

We may or may not get to vote on the treaty - I don't know. But I do know that if we vote yes then that will be one of the last meaningful things that we do vote on. Pretty much any law you might want to pass post-TTIP would be blocked by the TTIP ISDS process.

[levemi]

> Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part.

Direct democracy in diplomacy and trade negotiation sounds like a really terrible idea. It would just be constant protectionism, xenophobia and probably ruin economic growth and everyone will be the worse of for it. Sometimes giving more people a voice does not result in positive outcomes.

[tajen]

That's the difference between signing and ratifying. There's a story that USA's Congress never ratified the end of the war with Europe. A lot of countries voted No to the European referendum. Most of them voted Yes. Ultimately, the citizen should decide when they give up power, and they must repeat it regularly.

[caoilte]

That's a really depressing point of view. Especially, as trade seems to have been redefined to mean anything which might enable corporate profit...

[pjc50]

The content is different? Especially with regards to the investor-state dispute settlement system, which currently does not apply to the EU.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlem... )

[tremon]

Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists?

1) If the consumption of mood-altering prescription drugs is any indicator, then indeed, we are not happier.

2) Correlation is not causation.