[Cyph0n]

I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day.

My home country Tunisia for example has very strict currency controls in place, which means that it is impossible to purchase any goods from outside the country or even transfer money overseas.

The government now provides rechargeable card with a 1000 TND (~500 USD) limit that can be used for online purchases. However, these are only issued to software developers and entrepreneurs to allow them to subscribe to online services, such as hosting, domain names, etc.

Bitcoin provides a quick and easy way to circumvent that: convert your TND to BTC, and use that to purchase online goods or to transfer money outside the country.

I'm actually thinking of setting up a MVP to test out this idea, but I'm struggling to come up with a solution that is completely transparent for the end-user. In other words, I don't want the user to have to understand Bitcoin or buy/sell it manually. I'd prefer instead for the system to use BTC under the hood.

Another example I read about recently is Argentina. People are using Bitcoin there for daily transactions and for their savings due to high fluctuations in the local currency.

[coldtea]

>I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day.

Well, perhaps, but

(a) these people are a very small amount compared to "first world" bitcoin champions

(b) they would be better off pushing for actual policy change regarding their problems, instead of using a technological workaround who (depending on the whims of those in power) can land them in jail/money loss at any time...

[Cyph0n]

Actually, I'd argue that the potential for Bitcoin lies more in third world countries than economically developed ones. First world countries usually don't suffer from unstable currencies or financial controls, which is what makes the utility of Bitcoin seem quite limited.

Yes, your second point is true, but sometimes the country itself is struggling to stabilize its currency. Thankfully, that's not (yet) the case in Tunisia.

[snitko]

Actually, (b) is exactly the opposite. Instead of voting for certain economic policies and hoping "my guy wins" I can just use Bitcoin, which has the qualities I need, here and now: for instance, I can send money to anyone in the world without any of the KYC and AML bullshit and I don't need to wait and vote in just the right politician who promises(!) to easy the said regulations.

I can certifiably tell you that I AM better off because I started using bitcoin. And it's not because of the exchange rate, but because of the freedom to do what I please with my money.

[madeofpalk]

Also, the question was about why does HN hate Bitcoin so much. I would say the reasons stated cover that pretty well

[Goronmon]

I'm sorry, but you're looking at Bitcoin from a narrow viewpoint. There are in fact people who actually need Bitcoin in their day-to-day.

The question was why Bitcoin gets negative responses on places like HackerNews, and that question was answered.

[ifdefdebug]

> Bitcoin provides a quick and easy way to circumvent that

Is that reality as of today, or is that a hope for the future?

[Cyph0n]

No, but the potential is there, and it's already been done in other countries such as South Africa. The biggest hurdle I think is that Bitcoin is essentially unknown in Tunisia. I'm actually planning on building something but I don't have the entire system fleshed out.

[ifdefdebug]

I wish you good luck for your project sincerely. And for your country.

[forgetsusername]

That's a wonderful use case for BTC.

But the overwhelming majority of bitcoin investment, marketing and ownership isn't coming from Tunisia. It's coming from the West (and China), where most people have no problems spending or obtaining currency (maybe China does).

Why are Westerners so eager to make money off of people's inability to move money around poor countries, and why is it supported?

[mbrock]

One major reason why Bitcoin is used in the West is that it enables integrity and privacy when making online purchases, as opposed to bank-issued cards.

I've used BTC in an emergency situation, to transfer money when I would otherwise have needed to wait for several days for an international bank transfer (and then would also have hit my bank's foreign ATM withdrawal limit).

Your third paragraph is a veiled insult based on a notion that if applied consistently would deem the international banking system at least as immoral as Bitcoin.

[ChemicalWarfare]

Not hating on Bitcoin, but just to set the record straight - unless you're going through some extra hoops like mixers etc - the level of privacy you get with Bitcoin is less than what you get with a CC payment.

[mbrock]

If you buy BTC with cash and have it sent to a fresh wallet, that's quite some privacy—but yes, it's important to be aware of this stuff.

[Cyph0n]

It's actually virtually unknown in Tunisia as far as I can tell. I'm hoping that with an easy-to-use service and some marketing and advertising, it can become a bigger thing.

As for why it's big in more developed countries, I guess it's because people are using it either as an investment device, or for purchasing goods anonymously.

[Flimm]

How do you convert TND to BTC?

[Cyph0n]

I take your TND, and then I give you BTC which I've purchased. I will also buy your BTC, but I'll likely rely on BTC purchased from foreign exchanges. You then use that BTC for whatever. The problem is that it becomes difficult to bring in casual customers due to the overhead introduced by Bitcoin, as Bitcoin is virtually unknown in Tunisia.

A common issue in Tunisia especially is sending money to relatives in France. I want to give them the end-to-end experience in one place: you send me TND, I send your relative EUR. But everything I've thought of to accomplish that is just too complex.

So right now my idea is just to give users BTC in an online wallet and let them do whatever they want with it. That means I'll need to effectively educate users about the basics of Bitcoin at the very least.

[germanier]

> I take your TND, and then I give you BTC which I've purchased.

In that case you end up holding TND and need to purchase the bitcoin to give to your customers in another currency. You would have an easier result if you just directly exchanged TND to EUR without putting BTC in between. Likely that's about as legal as your solution. Just because at some point the value is hold in BTC doesn't mean currency controls cease to exist.

I don't see the value Bitcoin provides here at all except for the fact that the government agency that should enforce currency controls is likely not competent enough yet to spot what you are doing. I'd place a bet that as soon as you start advertising your transparent TND-EUR conversion scheme that they'll shut you down as fast as if you wouldn't use BTC.

[Cyph0n]

I agree, it's quite risky and can easily be shut down by the authorities if they catch wind of it. I think the simplest way to avoid the risk is to setup a decentralized exchange that connects buyers to sellers. But that means it becomes much more difficult to take a cut, as people will just meet face-to-face.

[Retric]

You would end up with several different exchange rates with TND > BTC quickly hitting ~3x what the 'official' exchange rates suggest. The basic problem is the country does not have enough exports, currency controls simply prop up the currency.

[germanier]

Yes, but why can't you just connect TND sellers and EUR sellers? Why insert all the complexity and risk BTC provides? The end result for both parties would be exactly the same.

[Cyph0n]

The current "low-tech" solution used by Tunisians to transfer money abroad is to get in contact with someone who has a relative living say in France. You give the person living in Tunisia the money, and the relative in France will transfer that same amount to the person of interest.

The key selling point for BTC is that it is completely digital. Think of it this way: if I have TND and would like to buy some EUR, how do I "store" the EUR I get? I only have a Tunisian bank account, so the EUR I receive from say a German account will still be stuck inside Tunisia. And if I receive cash, it won't do me much good. Not to mention the inherent risk involved in doing bank transfers.

But if I use my TND to buy BTC, I can store that BTC in an online wallet, or completely offline. I can easily transfer it to anyone anywhere in the world, or use it buy goods online. The simple act of getting your hands on BTC means that currency controls, transfer fees, etc. are completely circumvented. As for security and accountability, it becomes much easier to control given Bitcoin's digital nature.

[WJW]

I can't reply to Cyphons coment for some reason, but there seems to be a problem with setting up the trade he describes. If it's succesful, he will then be stuck with a large amount of TND, which he has no use for and, due to the currency controls, can't convert to a currency that is useful for him.

That is leaving out the point that both the operators and the clients are willfully circumventing the law, which most governments don't appreciate.

[Cyph0n]

Actually I'm a Tunisian, so the TND will be useful in the long run as an investment. But that still prevents me from reinvesting it into the business i.e. buying more BTC.

One way is to simply buy BTC from local sellers who perhaps bring BTC from outside the country. They take a cut and I add a markup before selling it back.

But there's another advantage I have. I'm currently residing outside the country, and if I do setup the business it will be funded using outside money. Because the company is funded externally, I can actually transfer any revenue it generates outside of the country.

As for your last point, that is in fact my biggest concern. The government could easily close down the company and its bank accounts at its pleasure. To avoid this, I think the safest option is to go with a purely decentralized market that simply connects buyers with sellers, but that will make it much harder to take a cut.

Anyways, I'm still thinking about the whole thing, and as you noted, it's not that straightforward.

[Andrew_Quentin]

You'd require some (substantial) investment, but you can always just mine them. Tunisia should have some fairly cheap electricity. Not sure how you can get the Asics there though. Maybe contact one of the sellers directly. They'll probably accept btc.

[WJW]

Good luck! I hope you find a way to improve our world.