[TheTarquin]

Agreed. Also, none of the coders I know are passionate about programming. Rather, they're passionate about making cool stuff.

As the saying goes, programming is not a what, but a how. Hackers don't get passionate about the act of coding any more than carpenters get passionate about driving nails.

[dminor]

> Rather, they're passionate about making cool stuff.

And also, just like carpenters, the tools they use.

[ryanwaggoner]

Whoa...is this true? I thought I was like this because I'm not a hardcore developer.

[mquander]

It's true for the great majority of programmers I know (good and bad), but it's not true for me. I care a great deal about programming and I'm not particularly interested in making cool stuff. So there are both sorts.

I'm interested in programming as a tool to give myself a clearer mental model of language, mathematics, computation, and thought, and I'm interested in writing and reading code that I find artistically aesthetic and elegant.

(Then again, I wouldn't call myself a 'hacker'. I think 'hacker' implies a large degree of making-cool-stuffmanship.)

[yters]

Yes, I had the same reaction. Cool stuff is alright, but I really like elegant code and algorithms, the more mathematical side of it all.

[TheTarquin]

Interesting. So, out of curiosity, are you just not particular about projects? If you had to choose between two arbitrary projects to work on, on what criteria would you base your choice?

[mquander]

I updated my comment to answer the obvious question of what I am interested in. I program to fulfill my practical needs and for work, but I really am interested mostly in learning as I do it and in producing code that is really high-quality, beautiful code (to the degree that the problem domain, my ability, and my personal taste allows.)

[MaysonL]

I may just be strange, but building tools for a clearer mental model of language, math, etc, sounds like really cools stuff.

[TheTarquin]

It's largely been my experience. The best programmers and the best hackers I know are all more passionate about what they're DOING with code rather than the minutiae of code itself.

Which isn't to say they aren't interested in technique. After all, carpenters still like to geek out over tools once in awhile . . .

[andrewcooke]

curious - does the distinction between cabinet makers and carpenters not exist any more? only the former were considered craftsmen by my grandfather.

[TheTarquin]

What was the distinction there? As far as I understand things, "cabinet maker" would be a proper subset of "carpenter".

[andrewcooke]

as far as i understood things, a cabinetmaker made "fine" things like, well, cabinets, tables, chairs, while a carpenter made things for construction, like window frames, or flooring.

[edit: well, wikipedia has a whole pile of different things listed under carpentry, so perhaps i remember wrong, or this was a local thing (my grandfather was an odd-job man in leeds, uk)]

[edit2: ah, perhaps the distinction was between carpenters and joiners, which is explained here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joiner - and is a uk-only thing. certainly "joiner" is a word i remember, but that you don't hear any more...]

[TheTarquin]

Interesting! I did not know that. Thanks for the explanation and link.