[dsp1234]

Combining the two, would still have done this:

"We didn't make an effort to carpool because it wasn't convenient."

if the oil companies had not done this:

"deliberately obfuscate, falsify documents, spend millions on misleading advertising, attempt to buy off critics or fund massive lobbying of law makers"

If you think the answer is obviously yes, then also please think about the dramatic turn in smoking statistics since it was revealed that the cigarette companies were acting in the same manner.

[chris_wot]

Um. I'm having difficulty parsing your question. Are you saying we wouldn't have behaved in the way we did if petrol companies didn't do all those dreadful things?

[dsp1234]

There are certainly a lot of 'not's in the statements, so I apologize for the confusion. I was trying to keep the previous comments pure.

At a basic level:

Would we have taken the same actions, if the oil industry had not taken the same actions?

If someone thinks the answer the question is, 'obviously yes', then I'm suggesting they look at the results of the revelations of the same actions by the tobacco industry.

If someone thinks anything else, I'm not making any specific statement.

[intended]

I think something else, because I don't think that individual human choice is the only driver of society, and modern human civilization.

This is precisely the role of policy and governance - we don't use CFCs for example, and we move towards more progressive emissions norms around the world every year.

lots of people would be tremendously happy to wait for tomorrow to make a difficult moral choice, even if it was obviously immoral.

And then there's additional fallout. The improvement and evolution FUD. A series of catchy rhetorical arguments, has given birth to "deniers", and the amazingly made expertise itself toxic.

And with the web, this malaise spreads over the English speaking web and infect other countries, forums and communities.

So, yes - as a society we would have taken different decisions and at a different time scale.

[chris_wot]

Ah. I thought that might be what you were saying - thanks for clarifying :-)

I don't believe we would have taken the same actions, or at the very least we would have modified our behaviour at lot sooner.