[stcredzero]

Generics are literally a form of abstraction

Is your unstated assumption then that all forms of abstraction must be used? If you've done substantive projects, you'll come to realize that abstractions have a cost, and that everything should be considered on a cost/benefit basis.

You might as well be arguing that abstraction doesn't help.

This is a black and white binary fallacy invoked to then create a straw man, which also seems to suggest that you haven't learned the importance of considering cost/benefit.

One of the best things about Go is it seems to be a strong signaler of the type of engineering team I avoided.

I would agree, this would seem to be a good signaler.

[d4rkph1b3r]

can you articulate the exact cost of adding generics? The benefits are profound, and the PL community has been doing research on it for the last forty some odd years.

Some of the benefits are opportunities for

* specialization

* reduction in boilerplate

* parametricity

* free theorems

* type classes

Objectively, a collections library written with generics and no subtyping will be much better and cleaner than a subtype based one.

The problem is, I've never heard generics argued against by someone who really understands generics. It's usually folks who got confused by them in java or really didn't dig into the theory behind them. An argument from ignorance isn't much of an argument.

[stcredzero]

Your comment is illustrative of a lack of awareness of context. You don't specify the context, but it seems like you're stuck in this academic/language theory mindset. From that standpoint, I rather like generics. It's clear to see how they can enable DRY if used judiciously. (Clear from even a freshman CS undergrad perspective.)

However, as a professional who gets paid to wrangle C++, I find the "Tragedy of the Commons" that results from every bright-eyed recent grad wanting to leave their mark on a system...tiresome. I recently fixed a bug caused by a small find-replace mistake, where a static_cast<int> was left out, resulting in an int() operator being generated by a confluence of preprocessor macros, inlined functions, and composed templates, where the call breaking in the stack trace was expressed nowhere in the code-base. It's one thing to DRY, but taking it one step too far to "Don't State Yourself In The First Place" is way too implicit. Abstractions have a cost, and sometimes the cost is epiphenomenal and gets paid years afterwards.

An argument from ignorance isn't much of an argument.

The decision of the Go team to not include generics is conservative and pragmatic. The context they consider is across an entire language community, and their decision is informed by observations made on code-bases at Google and elsewhere. How many 500k+ line code bases that have been around more than a decade have you worked on? I'm on something like my 4th. My conclusion from that is that we programmers as a group are mostly too anxious to be "clever" and biased towards doing too much when they evaluate the cost-benefit of "clever."

Do you have good data/experience on the epiphenomenal harm done by many, many "clever" programmers over years?

[d4rkph1b3r]

Ah, so you can't argue with me, so you're going to try the ol' appeal to authority ("i've worked on such big code bases that you'll never see").

You seem to assume I'm some naive recent grad. I've worked on more than a few 500k LOC applications. I'm a lead at a very large tech company (Fortune 50). The idea that '"clever"' programmers is a thing is incorrect.

There are good programmers and bad programmers. It doesn't matter if the lack of abstraction used by one type creates a monolithic mess of spaghetti code or if they use overly obscure attempts at abstraction. Bad code causes technical debt either way, and I've seen both done quite often.

[stcredzero]

Ah, so you can't argue with me, so you're going to try the ol' appeal to authority ("i've worked on such big code bases that you'll never see").

Uh, no. I asked if you understand such a context and if you have such data. Going by what you state, you do. A simple "yes" would have sufficed, and you could have left out the projection. Thank you for including the projection, as it is another valuable "signal."

The idea that '"clever"' programmers is a thing is incorrect.

There are good programmers and bad programmers.

Bad code causes technical debt either way, and I've seen both done quite often.

You do understand the use of quotes, then? "Clever" programming is thought to be clever by the perpetrator, but is actually bad programming and comprises technical debt. So either you are contradicting yourself above, or you are implying that "bad programmers" know they are bad, but do bad things anyways? This doesn't fit my experience.

[zimbatm]

Generics introduce more complexity in the type system which in turn makes the compiler slower.

Generics introduce more complexity for the reader of the code because it's another abstraction to understand.

It's debatable but when your brain is thinking about generics or context-switching because it has to wait on the compiler to finish, it's less time making progress on the actual thing that needs to be done.

[d4rkph1b3r]

The whole point of abstractions is that you don't have to worry about as much. Generics take away complexity, that's the whole point.

[zimbatm]

I suppose it depends on the level of understanding that you want from your code. Generics introduce another dimension which you have to think about when you want a good level of control on allocations for example. Different data types also have different optimizations available which could be missed when blindly relying on the generic algorithm (think sorting on a fixed set for example)

[stcredzero]

The whole point of abstractions is that you don't have to worry about as much. Generics take away complexity, that's the whole point.

Sure. Abstractions are perfect, and you never have to think about their costs. Generics always take away complexity. Gotcha.