[fauigerzigerk]

>In a properly tuned system with sufficient CPU capacity there should never be any full GC pauses with G1.

So you use a language without value types that makes you pay for two or three times more memory than comparable languages, and then you spend your time re-tuning the GC every time your allocation or usage patterns change. Then you hope to never trigger a full GC that could stall the VM for many seconds (or in extreme cases that I have seen even minutes). That makes very little sense to me.

I cannot speak to the performance of the current Go GC for 100G heap sizes. I never tried it and I haven't read anything about it. It's not my language of choice for that sort of task either.

[NateDad]

100GB heap size in Go? How about 15ms pauses with zero tuning?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWoAGeUW4AAy0-9.png:large

[sievebrain]

They aren't comparable at all. Go doesn't collect incrementally and doesn't compact. So good luck collecting garbage fast enough to keep up with a heap-heavy app (which if you have a 100GB heap, your app probably is).

In other words, the issue is not pause time, it's also throughput.

And Go users do tune their GC: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/14161

[NateDad]

But Go programs use way less memory than Java applications... so the java application that uses 100GB might only use 40GB (or less) in Go. And there are tweaks you can make to hot code in Go to not generate garbage at all (pooling etc).

[sievebrain]

Java's higher memory usage is not only related to value types, for example, in Java 8 strings always use 16 bit characters. That is fixed in Java 9. It resulted in both memory savings and speed improvements.

There are other sources of overhead too, but again - you seem to think Go has some magic solution to these problems. Since the new GC, Go is often using a heap much larger (such as twice the size) of actual live data. That's a big hit right there. And yes, you have to tune the Go GC:

https://github.com/golang/go/issues/14161

Even when Java gets value types, it won't magically slash memory usage in half. Pointer overheads are not that large.

[fauigerzigerk]

Value types are the main culprit behind Java's insane memory consumption. I found out through weeks of testing and benchmarking.

I mostly benchmarked a small subset of our own applications and data structures. We use a lot of strings, so I never even started to use Java's String class, only byte[].

I tried all sorts of things like representing a sorted map as two large arrays to avoid the extra Entry objects. I implemented a special purpose b-tree like data structure. I must have tried every Map implementation out there (there are many!). I stored multiple small strings in one large byte[].

The point is, in order to reduce Java's memory consumption, you must reduce the number of objects and object references. Nothing else matters much. It leads to horribly complex code and it is extremely unproductive. The most ironic thing about it is that you can't use Java's generics for any of it, because they don't work with primitives.

I also spent way too much time testing all sorts of off-heap solutions. At the end of the day, it's just not worth it. Using Go or C# (or maybe Swift if it gets a little faster) for small to medium sized heaps and C++ or Rust for the humungous sizes is a lot less work than making the JVM do something it clearly wasn't built to do.

[sievebrain]

I admire your dedication to optimisation!

But I think your conclusion is not quite right. I said above that pointer overhead is only one source of Java memory consumption, and pointed to (hah) strings as another source. You replied and said no, it's all pointers, followed by "I never even started using strings". Do you see why that approach will lead to a tilted view of where the overheads are coming from?

If your application is so memory sensitive that you can't use basic data structures like maps or strings then yes, you really need to be using C++ at that point.

In theory, especially once value types are implemented, it would be possible for a Java app to have better memory usage than an equivalent C++ app, as bytecode is a lot more compact than compiled code and the JVM can do optimisations like deduplicate strings from the heap (already). Of course how much that helps depends a lot on the application in question. But the sources of gain and loss are quite complex.

[fauigerzigerk]

>You replied and said no, it's all pointers, followed by "I never even started using strings". Do you see why that approach will lead to a tilted view of where the overheads are coming from?

I see what you mean, but when I said that Java uses two or three times as much memory as Go or C++, I didn't include tons of UTF-16 strings either, assuming most people don't use as many strings as I do. If your baseline does include a large number of heap based Java String objects, the difference would be much greater than two or three times because strings alone would basically double Java's memory usage (or triple it if you store mostly short strings like words using the short string optimization in C++ for comparison)

>In theory, especially once value types are implemented, it would be possible for a Java app to have better memory usage than an equivalent C++ app, as bytecode is a lot more compact than compiled code

I'd love to see that theory :-) But let's say it was magic and the bytecode as well as the VM itself would require zero memory, any difference would still only be tens of MB. So it would be negligible if we're talking about heap sizes on the order of tens or hundereds of GB.

[sievebrain]

Yes, if your heap is huge then code size savings don't matter much. I used to work with C++ apps that were routinely hundreds of megabytes in size though (giant servers that were fully statically linked). So code size isn't totally ignorable either.

WRT the theory, that depends what the heap consists of.

Imagine an app where memory usage is composed primarily of std::wstring, for example, because you want fast access to individual characters (in the BMP) and know you'll be handling multiple languages. And so your heap is made up of e.g. some sort of graph structure with many different text labels that all point to each other.

The JVM based app can benefit from three memory optimisations that are hard to do in C++ ... compressed OOPs, string deduplication and on-the-fly string encoding switches. OK, the last one is implemented in Java 9 which isn't released yet, but as we're theorising bear with me :)

Compressed OOPs let you use 32 bit pointers in a 64 bit app. Actually in this mode the pointer values are encoded in a way that let the app point to 4 billion objects not bytes, so you can use this if your heap is less than around 32 gigabytes. So if your graph structure is naturally pointer heavy in any language and, say, 20 gigabytes, you can benefit from this optimisation quite a lot.

String deduplication involves the garbage collector hashing strings and detecting duplicates as it scans the heap. As a String object points to the character array internally, that pointer can be rewritten and the duplicates collected, all in the background. If the labels on your graph structure are frequently duplicated for some reason, this gives you the benefits of a string interning scheme but without the need to code it up.

Finally the on-the-fly character set switching means strings that can be represented as Latin1 in memory are, with 16 bit characters only used if it's actually necessary. If your graph labels are mostly English but with some non-Latin1 text mixed in as well, this optimisation could benefit significantly.

Obviously, as they are both Turing complete, the C++ version of the app could implement all these optimisations itself. It could use 32 bit pointers on a 64 bit build, it could do its own string deduplication, etc. But then you have the same problem as you had with off-heap structures in Java etc: sure, you can write code that way, but it's a lot more pleasant when the compiler and runtime do it for you.