[ryuuchin]

I can't understand Why OpenSSL continues to use it's own PRNG implimentation when we have /dev/urandom and CryptGenRandom which are known to be good. This is basically what BoringSSL does (although if you have rdrand then it will get filtered through a ChaCha20 instance).

I'm pretty sure OpenSSL doesn't even reseed its PRNG on Windows unless the calling application does it so I'm not sure how that's safe either. If you look at applications using OpenSSL like OpenVPN I don't see any calls to the PRNG init function to ensure it has enough entropy. I'm not sure of the security impact of this.

[miles]

"/dev/urandom and CryptGenRandom which are known to be good"

Check out "A good idea with bad usage: /dev/urandom":

http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2014/05/a-good-idea-with-ba...

Just stumbled onto it in the new submissions queue:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11485876

[geofft]

... I'm not sure I can take an article seriously that suggests "but what if the attacker can modify files in /dev?".

In any case, the meaningful concerns from that article have been addressed with the getrandom syscall on Linux, introduced a few months after this article was written: https://lwn.net/Articles/606141/

Perhaps we should start saying "getrandom" / "getentropy" instead of "/dev/urandom", but they're the same underlying CSPRNG (although getrandom has the distinct advantage of allowing you to tell if the urandom pool has been initialized, which /dev/urandom doesn't let you do), so I can understand being sloppy with usage. I would sort of assume anyone in a position to patch OpenSSL's RNG either upstream or in a distro is aware of getrandom and why it exists, but maybe that's a bad assumption.

[ryuuchin]

I forgot about the new getrandom syscall but yes that would be preferred if supported.

[maxerickson]

That article says //Continue filling with other sources where it should say //exit with an error.

[neerdowell]

/dev/urandom isn't reliable; it fails in a chroot, if file handles are exhausted, etc.

[jjnoakes]

It fails in a poorly set up chroot, not any old chroot.

It also fails in a poorly set up root file system in the same way. No chroot needed.

I can't remember ever running out of file descriptors unless a program had a leak. But if you want to argue that position too, make sure you mention that cputime and memory could also be exhausted, leading to... well... any other method failing in a similar fashion.

A system call definitely has some minor benefits over a file in /dev, bit the reverse is also true (access from shells, or any language really, with no built in support).

But calling /dev/urandom unreliable is a little bit intellectually dishonest.

[neerdowell]

> It fails in a poorly set up chroot, not any old chroot.

It fails for any program that calls chroot(2) and chroots to a location that hasn't had /dev/urandom constructed, which is... almost every program that sandboxes by calling chroot(2).

> I can't remember ever running out of file descriptors unless a program had a leak.

You've probably never used ulimits or login groups then.

> But if you want to argue that position too, make sure you mention that cputime and memory could also be exhausted, leading to... well... any other method failing in a similar fashion.

You're writing a library and in one of the functions you call arc4random(3). How would you handle memory being exhausted at the time when arc4random is called? Hint: you wouldn't. You'd let the OS handle it, probably by terminating something. Which might be the running process or another process.

New situation, you're writing a library and in one of the functions you open() a file handle and read() from it. How would you handle that operation failing? Thought about it? Got your answer? Good.

Now see the comments in LibreSSL for why your answer to that is wrong: https://github.com/libressl-portable/openbsd/blob/cb62fd8b9b...

> But calling /dev/urandom unreliable is a little bit intellectually dishonest.

/dev/urandom is not a high-availability randomness source, therefore it is unreliable. It is not intellectually dishonest, it is a statement of fact.

[jjnoakes]

> It fails for any program that calls chroot(2) and chroots to a location that hasn't had /dev/urandom constructed, which is... almost every program that sandboxes by calling chroot(2).

Yeah. Those programs fail if they try to do anything with the file system they weren't set up for. Running external commands via the shell? Better have /bin/sh. Running executables? Better have the libraries set up. Resolving hostnames? Better have the files in /etc and nsswitch and others. Probably want a /dev/tty. /dev/null. /proc mounted. /sys mounted. Or, if you are really a super bare bones app which knows it doesn't need any of that stuff, you pre-read /dev/urandom before you chroot(2) or you use the system call.

None of that means /dev/urandom is unreliable.

> You've probably never used ulimits or login groups then.

Sure I have. But I have never run anything that needed more than 32 open files at a time. If your limits are pathologically low, you can come up with any scenario where trivial programs fail to work. But such a discussion isn't productive.

> [bunch of nonsense]

Returning an error code seems to be a fine option if your library is asked to perform a task and it can not. I see nothing in LibreSSL which indicates that this is a bad idea.

What IS a bad idea is falling back to some nonsense like getuid() + getpid() + time() instead of returning some error. If you can't access a random number generator and you need a random number (and especially if you are a cryptography library) then return a failure error code.

But that's orthogonal to this discussion (why did you bring up LibreSSL?)

> /dev/urandom is not a high-availability randomness source

Well by your definition, nothing is high-availability, so everything is unreliable. So I guess you are right, in your world, but your argument just became meaningless.

A system call is better, but /dev/urandom is fine.

[caf]

Seeding a userspace CSPRNG from /dev/urandom or getrandom(2) is actually the right approach. The kernel pool is a resource shared among all processes, with the locking and therefore scalability constraints that implies.

[KMag]

Also, it's a good idea to reseed your userspace CSPRNG from the kernel's entropy source periodically. This is precisely what OpenBSD did with their arc4random and arc4random_buf library calls. (Don't worry, they now use ChaCha20 instead of arcfour/RC-4, but have kept the function name unchanged, since it's a backward-compatible change... the only way a caller can tell RC-4 from ChaCha20 is by detecting small statistical biases in RC-4's outputs.)

[cyphar]

I think you mean /dev/random. On unixes, /dev/urandom produces a stream of random bytes that may not have high entropy, while /dev/random will block on reads until there's enough entropy in the pool.

[anaphor]

nope, that's a myth http://www.2uo.de/myths-about-urandom/

[slavik81]

That link appears to confirm cyphar's assertion that /dev/urandom may produce a low-entropy output stream in certain circumstances.

> Linux's /dev/urandom happily gives you not-so-random numbers before the kernel even had the chance to gather entropy. When is that? At system start, booting the computer.

[technion]

The part of this myth is down to what those circumstances are.

What's generally accepted is that, early during first boot, urandom still produces 'random' data without enough entropy for it to be sufficiently random.

What's a myth is that 'entropy can run out' and somehow a sufficiently seeded CSPRNG needs to block after a few reads while it gathers more entropy.

The problem in these discussions is that one, edge case, but valid concern, becomes a cargo cult of "why you shouldn't use urandom" and introduces a messy anti-pattern.

[rurban]

Which is was exactly described in this paper. It's not cargo cult, it's the exact technical explanation what happens when the entropy runs out, while it should be blocking or in the OpenSSL case just use a proper API to avoid the exact same confusion (this is low entropy as with /dev/urandom ) or add more mixing rounds.

The cargo cult you are describing is exactly the cargo cult trap you are falling into.

[technion]

Question 4 specifically discusses the point tat entropy does not "run out".

[Natanael_L]

Entropy doesn't run out if your CSPRNG is good

[geofft]

One of the very early initscripts (on Debian, /etc/rcS.d/urandom or /lib/systemd/system/urandom.service, both of which happen well before normal initscripts) restores a random seed that was saved at last shutdown.

After this script runs, the numbers are back to being cryptographically pseudorandom. Before this script runs, lots of other stuff isn't set up -- no networking, no remote filesystems, possibly not even swap -- so if you're writing code that needs to run there, you hopefully know that the system is in a weird state. And if you're writing something that runs a service that needs secure random numbers that early in the boot process, you're definitely doing something nonstandard and possibly misguided, and it's reasonable for the burden to be on you to take appropriate precautions, or switch to doing something normal.

For normal application developers, who tend to wait until after the network is up to interact with the network, this special case doesn't apply.

[slavik81]

The usual time I've been concerned has been after creating a new virtual machine. Right after creating a new DO droplet I need to do a bunch of things to set up my application, like seed my CSRF token generator.

Of course, /dev/random would block for ages at that point, so I instead generate the seed on a different machine.

[geofft]

Ugh, yes, the practice of short-lived machines throws off the assumption of "when it was last shut down." You are totally right that this is a concern.

The ideal solution to this would be for hypervisors to just pass a random seed to their guests. (There is even a full virtio-rng device in qemu, it just seems to have /dev/random semantics from a quick glance.) I don't know how we get to the point of convincing the big cloud providers to start doing this, though.

[cyphar]

Interesting. I picked up that misconception from a Linux kernel comment a while ago. Thanks for telling me it's a myth. I knew that the two outputs came from the same source, I just assumed that the blocking had more-than-negligible effects.

[ryuuchin]

No I definitly mean /dev/urandom[1] or the getrandom syscall which would be equal to /dev/urandom.

[1] http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2014/02/25/safely-generate-random...

[rootw0rm]

It depends upon which of the many functions you call to get your bits, iirc. I've been studying it a bit, though i've taken a little break, so i'd need to find my notes. it's certainly terrible on windows, but not completely broken...only semi-broken, lol. i think i remember there being some ancient reseeding mechanism that only works on XP in there somewhere too, but fuck it i'm drunk.

[erichurkman]

Isn't 'semi-broken' equal to 'broken' for cryptographic purposes?