[madaxe_again]

To be fair, I was last there six years ago, spent most of my time travelling through the the countryside, a few weeks in Cluj, visited friends in Sibiu, and got robbed when I went through Bucharest on my way to Moldova.

So yes, my view is far less accurate than yours, as it's from about six weeks six years ago - but the only place I saw comparable levels of overt corruption was Kyrgyzstan, and I've visited most of the ex-ussr and associated states. This is no judgment on the Romanian or Kyrgyz peoples - this is a sad fact of life after economic oppression - corruption becomes a way of life.

[oblio]

I'm sorry for your personal experience, but you should be able to realize that traumatic personal experiences can cloud your opinion about a very complex topic such as a whole country.

I visited the US and I wasn't really impressed, for example. But I wouldn't judge the US based on just what I saw in a couple of weeks, considering what I've read and seen about it.

Oh, and regarding corruption: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Anticorruption_Dire...

[madaxe_again]

Oh, I don't have a dim view of Romania though, I loved my time there, I fell in love with Sibiu - actually, a big chunk of what I said/think comes from a buddy from Cluj who I've known 25 years or so - and I hadn't heard about the anticorruption initiative, that's good news.

I had a knife stuck in my back at a cafe and had my camera stolen, and the police officer I found then took my passport and wanted (and got) a bribe to return it. Not a unique experience, I've been held up and hijacked variously around the planet, but it did go to reinforce the Cluj guy's "don't bother with Bucharest, you'll get mugged" anecdotes!

Oh, and driving around rural Romania on single track roads, I guess the donkey carts kinda stick out, as you get a nice long view of the back of them! Selection bias...

Anyway, cheers for the education.

[oblio]

Sorry for that :(

Romania actually has a lower crime rate than the US, so you were unlucky.

The cop part is what they're working on with the whole anti corruption initiative.

[adventured]

That would heavily depend on what type of crime you're talking about.

For example, corruption is a very serious form of crime. Romania ranks #58 (below Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Croatia, and Greece) on Transparency International's corruption index, compared to the US at #16.

With Romania having such extreme corruption, how can you be certain its crime stats are worth taking seriously? How under-reported is crime - rape, theft, violent crime etc - likely to be in a nation with corruption problems that are that bad? From other countries with even worse corruption (eg Venezuela or Brazil), what we do know is that there tends to be a direct correlation - for extremely obvious reasons - between high levels of corruption and poor crime reporting.

[oblio]

I'm not sure that the police reward system is based on crime stats over here. I.e. the police chief gets more money if he reports fewer crimes. Considering the way people in our public sector think, it's more likely that the police chief would want to report more crimes, since he can hire more people, get more resources and likely more bribes.

And my anecdotal evidence says that Romania is truly a safe country. I probably know 1000+ Romanians and I know 1 that has been robbed while being threatened with a knife and several that have had things stolen from them. This feeling of safety is one of the few things that's reported constantly by people I know, either in rural areas or in urban areas: violence is not wide spread. We even have a proverb that says: "mamaliga explodeaza greu" ("it takes a long tine for mamaliga to explode": mamaliga is a local dish, a sort of corn porridge; the meaning of the expression is that we don't get aggravated quickly; we do talk a lot, curse and threaten and whatever but we tend to not actually fight that much... maybe we're cowards :) ). Most people over here would find the US gung-ho mentality quite threatening ("don't take my guns", "stand your ground").

What does happen constantly, and what the agency I posted above tries to fight, is wide spread practice of asking for bribes for any kind of service performed by a public servant. Which has a huge negative impact on small businesses, especially.

[madaxe_again]

Interesting point you make re: small businesses - my friend runs a web development shop, and he was telling me about how they keep accounts, and "accounts", because declaring a profit is a good way to ensure a tax inspector will arrive and won't leave until you bribe him to go away.

Interestingly, this phenomenon isn't limited to Romania - a Latvian friend running a furniture company does the same thing for the same reason - for the first two years of his business he filed genuine books - the first year, they came asking for a bribe, he refused - the second year, they raided him and took all the machine tools - so now he just "makes a loss" every year and they don't bother him.

Similarly, a Lithuanian friend who used to run a telco found himself stuck in the middle of a lover's quarrel between the state telecoms regulator and another telco who had paid a bribe to win a tender, which he then bid for and made things awkward.

Corruption is no joke - I think many underestimate the chilling effect it has on everything from civil liberties to tourism to business to tax revenue collection - if your tax collectors are corrupt, you are well and truly on the road to hell.

Re: Romania feeling safe, you're right - which is in no small part why my experience in Bucharest was such a shock - it was at total odds with the Romania I'd experienced up to that point.

[bogomipz]

You visited the US and "weren't impressed"? Where did you visit exactlY? Its a very large country with over 200 milion people. What weren't you impressed with? What was lacking? Also where are you from thats more impressive?

[oblio]

> You visited the US and "weren't impressed"?

Yes.

> Where did you visit exactly?

San Francisco, San Jose, Seattle. I plan on visiting New York this year or maybe next year.

> Its a very large country with over 200 million people.

I think it's over 300 million now :)

> What weren't you impressed with?

Well... homeless people. The fact that cities don't seem to be very "walkable" (and from what I've read SF is one of the best US cities in this regard). Food in supermarkets. Various other minor aspects.

> What was lacking?

I wouldn't say "lacking". Instead I'd say that I like other things more.

> Also where are you from that's more impressive?

I'm from Romania (not hard to guess, considering the topic). It's not "impressive" either.

What I find "impressive" instead is Germany.

And you seem to be bothered by a part of my previous comment. So I'll repost another part which you might have missed:

> But I wouldn't judge the US based on just what I saw in a couple of weeks, considering what I've read and seen about it.

[bogomipz]

Ha, yeah that was a typo : ) I think its closer to 330 million these days.

The homeless problem in SF is really terrible and particularly glaring. Homelessness in general is a problem in many major cities in US however the intensity of it in SF is not not at all representative of the rest of the US.

I'm not impressed by either SF or San Jose either, but I wouldn't say the US doesn't impress me. The North East Corridor of the US is very different from the places you visited as is the South, the Midwest etc.

[hvm]

You don't need to defend it, you know. That was the point the poster was making - that just because he had a subpar experience he shouldn't judge the whole country by it.

[logfromblammo]

The US is very much like 5 to 12 different countries pretending to be one.

Personally, I'd classify the culturally distinct areas as Pacific Coast, Big West, Mormonland, Deep South, Mid-Atlantic, North Mexico, Eastern Megalopolis (Washington DC to Boston), Middle Neutralia, Flori-duh (aka Murica's Glans), and Cajun Country.

Having visited most at least once, and lived in three for at least a year, each are impressive in different ways. It isn't always a positive impression.

[ddalex]

It is unbelivable how much the society changed in the last 6 years; ouvert corruption is still visible in Romania, but now there is a growing social stigma associated with it, as it should be in a western-type civilization. The gap in mentality is still there, because it isn't easy to eradicate 50 years of bad influence (communism, I'm looking at you!). But the gap is closing, and now it is common to see cabinet-level people ending up in prison, sending strong messages throughout the society.

[nnq]

Can you give some examples of corruption that actually hindered you? I consider corruption to be a minor-to-non-existent problem for areas like IT/tech here.

The main problem to me is the lack of entrepreneurship and the fact that there are lots of "stealth-startups" in Romania that will probably not even be incorporated in Romania ever, so they'll never show up on the radar as "Romanian startups", they will simply "pack up the whole team and move" abroad after the first big foreign investor spots them and invests/acquires with a "relocation requirement".

There are also entrepreneurs that run their companies disguised as outsourcing-shops while the real startup is actually the outsourcing-shop's client registered somewhere like USA-Delaware/Hongkong/whatever because it leads to better perspective from the customers. Of course, this is also a short term arrangement before the team of the company is swallowed by a bigger fish.

There is a lot going on, but int this part of the world very few of what's happening actually shows up on the radar as what it is.

Also... coming back to corruption, imho the greatest problem is lack of entrepreneurial spirit because the society and education actively discourages smart people from becoming entrepreneurs... so they end up engineers, doctors etc. ...or emigrate. Corruption really makes little difference because real innovation doesn't happen while working on projects for the state anyway. I think that a certain level of corruption can even help economic growth if used selectively - ie a bribe that sabotages a bigger international corporation from getting a contract for a state-financed development project in favor of a local startup (where, for example, one of the investors happens to be a local senator or whatever... probably not the best example but to get the point across) can actually result in more money funneling back into the local economy and fueling its growth... Everything can be a double edged sword in the bigger economic game.

The American obsession with corruption in other countries is imho more out of fear of being out-maneuvered by foreign local businessmen in the international economic game when it comes to uderhanded tactics :) (see http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/... for context)

[marinabercea]

It's easy to acquire a skewed impression of any country as a foreign visitor, so I completely empathize with you. Unfortunately getting mugged/robbed would be possible anywhere in the world, even in the poshest of places. As for the status on corruption, there's active progress being made, as an example, see an older article on the subject http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/opinion/romanias-anti-corr...

[paterati]

Romania I think is a good case study in a country that has a oppressive regime that gets removed, suddenly gets given loads of money to improve itself (EU in this case) and then corruption sets in. Loads of examples, in both Eastern Europe, Russia itself and Africa.

It has shown in the last couple of years that the people might be trying to change that with the way that it got rid of its previous president but it is a long process to change peoples mindsets.