[ergothus]

I won't disagree with most of what you said (though I will say that having one way to do it does NOT mean that said one way is particularly readable/maintainble - looking at you, Java).

That said, for every time I've hated that someone got terse and clever, I've loved that I wrote something that _read_ well, particularly when returning to previous code I don't remember. Coding is like a language, you can use that expressiveness to be terse, to be rambling, or to be clear. Learning to do so is a skill that has to be learned (cost), but can be more expressive (benefit). Languages (or patterns) that restrict that reduce the cost, and reduce the benefit.

Consider, for example, that Python takes great pride in it's explicit readability, and yet it chose "lambda" as a keyword (making no one happy outside of higher math), that "def" was chosen instead of "define", and that one of the most powerful parts of the language (comprehensions) are highly prone to using secret knowledge. [] works differently than (), for example.

So, what you've described are all valid reasons that Perl has a bad rep...but I don't blame Perl for them anymore than I blame JS for the hideousness that is the DOM, or Python for the bad scripts that have been written in it. Regardless of the language, cleverness and/or terseness without regard to future people (including your future self) is just not a good practice.

[mavelikara]

  though I will say that having one way to do it does NOT mean that 
  said one way is particularly readable/maintainble - looking at you, 
  Java
  ..
  So, what you've described are all valid reasons that 
  Perl has a bad rep...but I don't blame Perl for them 
  anymore than I blame JS for the hideousness that is the 
  DOM, or Python for the bad scripts that have been written 
  in it.

Will you be willing to extend the same charity to the bad Java code you have seen? Or do you have specific complaints for your harsh comments singling out Java?

[ergothus]

If you're looking for me to say I'm biased and occasionally say some exaggerated complaints....yeah, that's true. But as I still feel the basis has reasoning, I'll continue to answer:

Yes and no.

For the bad Java code I've seen, Java does not bear the responsibility. (And I've seen my fair share of bad Java code because I spent 5 years as a Java dev in a place that had a collection of bad coders and worse code). I've also (since) seen great coders with quality code (in Java), but I definitely retain some bias from my earlier experience.

BUT, when your language design promotes certain things, then yes, that language takes the hit. For example, some of the Perl options are just plain terrible (e.g. changing 0 indexing) and Perl takes the blame. Perl also moved away from those, recognizing the errors. Books like Higher Order Perl (and associated efforts) came out to promote best practices.

Java expressly sought verbosity, and thus takes the blame for verbosity at the expense of clarity.

Other practices are encouraged by the community. That's a gray area - it's not the language at fault, but...it's common. These can range from small and almost petty (Perl promoted underscores in variable names for REASONS, while Java promotes camelCaseBecauseIGuessSomePeopleLikeToSquintToParseVariables.) Not really the LANGUAGE fault, but definitely an expectation. (and one I've grown accustomed to in the name of working with others). Other problems are larger (Kingdom of Nouns) - still not the Language fault, but you can expect it if you're dealing with the code.

Many a time I've tried to trace through some Java code...weaving through "Impl" classes and factories, trying to find where some piece of logic is implemented...only to find myself in an empty class definition. That's a fault of both encouraged practices and poor practices.

When people complain of poor Perl code, it's usually code that was either written by someone that didn't do that as their main job, code from newbies, or code that has changed hands repeatedly with no one trying to make it maintainable. Most any code will suffer in those conditions. Java, thus far, has had the worst overall quality of code in "professional" collections that I've experienced. But then again, I've really only seen code in any quantity in 3 or 4 languages, so....anecdotal experience is anecdotal and subjective.

(I have to give props to Python here...while I have a few nits about a few things, and I'm not well-versed enough to discuss code quality of anything I skim, I've seen a lot of code that was probably "bad" but nonetheless avoided some mistakes that are commonly made in other languages, particularly with new coders.)