[jcromartie]

And part of the reason why cops are armed to the teeth is because the citizens are. It would require real total mutual disarmament of citizens and police to change anything in the USA.

So I don't see it changing any time soon.

[talmand]

American citizens have always been armed to the teeth, so to speak. American police departments were not, this is a more recent phenomenon. It's partly due to the Federal level programs that are equipping the police with surplus military hardware. I find it doubtful that a regular street cop is going to encounter a situation in their day-to-day to justify the level of armament as if they were on the SWAT team.

[hnal943]

...because the criminals are. And therein lies to fatal flaw of gun control - only people who are law abiding would comply with the new laws.

[LyndsySimon]

I don't believe that US criminals are more heavily-armed than those in other countries. In fact, the opposite is likely true.

In the US most criminals who are armed have inexpensive, unreliable handguns. An armed criminal in the UK (while less common) would seem more likely to have something like a submachinegun or a machine pistol. If the penalty is severe and the gun is rare and expensive... why go through all that trouble and risk for a .32 revolver, when you could just as easily obtain a Skorpion?

[pjc50]

You're thinking like an American: bigger is better :)

UK armed robberies are often [citation needed] carried out with imitation or deactivated firearms, as the robbers neither need nor want to kill anyone and it's considerably cheaper, easier to get hold of, and less illegal.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/htt... page 6 has a breakdown graph into shotguns, handguns, imitation (includes air and BB), and "other".

[maxerickson]

What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm?

Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles.

I'm not going to go find the facts and figures, still, I'm pretty sure that the incidence of gun crime is higher in the US, pointing out that gun buying criminals in the UK probably buy nicer guns doesn't change that.

[LyndsySimon]

> What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm?

There are likely a greater portion of unarmed criminals in the UK. Since their potential victims are also unarmed, that means that are at the mercy of physically dominating criminals. I fail to see how this is an improvement.

> Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles.

Practically speaking, a person with a 6" knife can do far more damage to a person and have a higher likelihood of inflicting a mortal wound than someone with a .38 revolver.

> I'm not going to go find the facts and figures, still, I'm pretty sure that the incidence of gun crime is higher in the US, pointing out that gun buying criminals in the UK probably buy nicer guns doesn't change that.

Yeah, me neither, and rates don't really factor into this thread. My entire point is that more restrictions means that it's in the best interest of an armed criminal to obtain the most effective firearm possible.

[maxerickson]

A statement like I don't believe that US criminals are more heavily-armed than those in other countries. sure sounds like a statement that is inclusive of rates to me.

Say 1 guy uses a legitimate high caliber machine gun to commit some crime, is that the only crime that gets used when describing how criminals are armed in that country?

[LyndsySimon]

OK, let me rephrase then - "I believe that the average effectiveness of the weapons possessed by those criminals who are armed with firearms in jurisdictions where firearms are heavily restricted is almost certainly much greater than the average effectiveness of the weapons possessed by those criminals who are armed with firearms in jurisdictions with comparatively permissive firearms laws"

[jahewson]

As someone who spent most of their life in the UK, allow me to explain why you are utterly wrong.

> There are likely a greater portion of unarmed criminals in the UK. Since their potential victims are also unarmed, that means that they are at the mercy of physically dominating criminals.

It's certainly true that most criminals in the UK are unarmed, but the "physically dominating" bit is way off the mark because most criminals are not physically dominating - anyone can be a criminal - the factors driving people towards crime have nothing to do with physical stature. This means that the majority of criminals are actually not particularly threatening, I have a friend who was mugged and simply picked up his assailant and threw him over a wall, another just laughed in the face of the teenager who threatened to mug him and walked off. Pepper spray and some knowledge of self defence will make you well prepared to handle the vast majority of criminals in the UK.

> Practically speaking, a person with a 6" knife can do far more damage to a person and have a higher likelihood of inflicting a mortal wound than someone with a .38 revolver.

First of all, knifes are also tightly controlled in the UK, though obviously smaller knifes are not particularly hard to come by. No doubt a skilful knife wielder can do a lot of damage to a person, but most criminals also are not skilful. At all. An inept gun wielder of any physical stature can effortlessly kill someone from yards away, in an instant. It's so easy, a toddler can do it. Also it's a lot harder to accidentally stab someone than to accidentally shoot them. Furthermore, those so inclined can (and do) learn how to fendoff a knife attack - you can't do that with a gun attack.

> my entire point is that more restrictions means that it's in the best interest of an armed criminal to obtain the most effective firearm possible.

That's completely backwards. You could hold up pretty much anywhere in the UK using a fake gun or an air rifle. There's absolutely no need for criminals to have actual weapons when their victims and the police too, are unarmed, because they pose no threat. Contrast this with the non-restrictive environment in the US where an unarmed or poorly armed criminal risks being shot by their victim, a responder, or the police. I live in the US now and my local ATM has an armed guard for crying out loud. That's an incredible incentive for criminals to turn up very well armed.

> rates don't really factor in to this thread

Oh but they do, because criminals with guns don't just wave them around for show: they use them. The per-capita homicide rate in the US is 5x higher than the UK and that difference is almost entirely composed of gun crime [1]. Take a moment to think about that.

So in conclusion, the U.K. is much, much safer because criminals don't have access to lethal weapons that are effortlessly easy to use and the statistics spell this out as clear as day.

[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604

[knz]

> The per-capita homicide rate in the US is 5x higher than the UK and that difference is almost entirely composed of gun crime.

Is this because of the accessibility of firearms or other factors (specifically inequality and poverty)? While it's true that the US has a higher per capita rate of homicide, the impacts are not evenly distributed across society. Most Americans live in safe communities with crimes rates similar to other OECD countries. Even within cities with high rates of crime, homicide is usually restricted to a small geographic area.

[yrro]

> Practically speaking, a person with a 6" knife can do far more damage to a person and have a higher likelihood of inflicting a mortal wound than someone with a .38 revolver.

What complete crap.

[ascorbic]

Because you couldn't just as easily. It's hard and expensive for a criminal to get hold of even a real revolver. Machine pistols and submachineguns are the preserve of organised crime. There's no way any regular criminal will be able to get their hands on one. Most handguns used by criminals are reactivated antiques and replicas. Guns are rare and expensive, but some are rarer and more expensive than others. Even when handguns were legal they were not common, as the licensing laws were already tight.

[firethief]

You seem to be dividing people into "law abiding" and "law disregarding". I posit that it's more complicated, and a law can disincentivize an activity even for people who break other laws.

[psychometry]

Sigh...good guys with guns, again? Right. Your good guy with a gun is only that up until the moment he decides to go on a mass shooting spree. Is he still a good guy with a gun then?

[TallGuyShort]

That's why we should stop thinking that government employees are always good guys too. I've been through more background checks than most cops, and through about as much training as most young cops - but that doesn't make a difference in most gun control schemes that get discussed in the US.

[LyndsySimon]

Hear, hear!

[throwaway21816]

>And part of the reason why cops are armed to the teeth is because the citizens are.

The vast majority of deaths from firearms result from handguns not AR15s. You dont have criminals in Level 4 hard plates roaming around down town LA with shoulder fired rockets.

[arprocter]

Going after scary 'military assault' guns is an easier political sell than tackling handguns.

The majority of US gun murder is one guy with a handgun shooting another person, which won't ever make national headlines