[skyyler]

Kind of relevant: Are bootcamps worth it? I'm looking to get into programming, but I have a full time support job right now that I need to be able to live and eat. I can save my money and do a bootcamp, or I could learn how to program in my downtime. I'm not sure which route to go through.

My friend did a local bootcamp and now he's doing ASP.NET work and loves it! I'm just scared of doing that specific one because I don't really have interest in anything microsoft.

[hatsix]

Why not both?

Our hires from bootcamps would have learned coding on their own, but the bootcamp just accelerated their learning. Their experience was that those who were already digging in and involved before the bootcamp were the ones who got the best offers at the end.

[bcassedy]

I attended App Academy and am one of the people who had already started digging in and used bootcamp as an accelerator of sorts. That is actually the reason I've never written a formal review.

I've written reviews on a message board a couple of times and provided specific advice re: bootcamps to posters as well. Ultimately it's a very personal experience. While I think the experience was great for me, some of the people that didn't have as much prior exposure and effort really struggled and I worry about their long term prospects.

[Terr_]

I think the answer to this depends on how much experience or practice you already have with programming.

It sounds like you're just starting out and you're nervous about your situation. In that case, I'd focus on a bit of simple private learning that will help prime you to get more out of any bootcamp or formal-learning stuff you may do later.

For example, set up a basic Python interpreter, grab one of those "teach yourself" books from the library, and at least run through using basic building-blocks like algebra, if-then conditionals, looping, functions, etc. It doesn't matter too much what language you use.

[skyyler]

I am pretty much just starting out. I took a few classes in high school and I've done some really minor projects since then, but I'd definitely still call myself a complete noobie.

I've been considering trying out Learn Python the Hard Way, it comes up in pretty much every "I want to learn programming" thread on /g/.

[trowawee]

How sure are you that you want to write code for a living? How much debt do you have? What kind of savings do you have? How many external obligations do you have?

DBC was worth it for me; I moved to a new city, got a great job, didn't have to take on too much debt, and I am generally happier and better off now. But it's not a flat yes or no, it's very much a question of your circumstances and your commitment level.

[skyyler]

I'm very sure that I'd like to write code for a living. I have $3k in credit cards from the last time I was unemployed, a $16k car loan, and around $2k in student loans from the one semester of college I did before I had to start working to pay for food. I don't have a savings. My only obligation is that my girlfriend of 5 years has a really great job in this city so I'd like to stay here until I get a "big boy" job.

[jefft255]

It depends what kind of job you've got now. If it's technical, let's say engineering or science, data analysis etc... , then you can learn how to code on your own and build something that you can show to potential employers. You'll need a certification or something if you have no prior experience in a technical field.

[vyrotek]

Which bootcamp did your friend attend? Did they teach your friend .NET at the bootcamp? I love the .NET ecosystem and even have a company built on it. I'd love to learn more about bootcamps that expose new developers to .NET.

[skyyler]

"The Software Guild" in Akron, Ohio. Here's a copy/paste of his review of them, I tried to get him to comment here but he's a little busy.

"I was an apprentice in the Software Craftsmanship Guild's .NET cohort in August 2014. Eric Wise is definitely one of the best teachers I've ever had, as well as one of the coolest people I've come to know. His 15 years of development experience in many aspects of development shows in all of his work. Combined with his devotion to his students and seemingly endless energy creates a unique and exciting classroom experience. He's /always/ available for questions and advice on Skype or Email, even after we graduate from the course. The PowerPoint slides are an incredible resource that we get to keep to review in the future. It gives us not only the necessary information, but the best practices for many common problems we face in coding in an easy to navigate package. They're so great that they are being licensed by colleges to be incorporated into their curriculum.

One of the most valuable parts of the course, in my opinion, was the job placement "speed-dating". At the beginning of the 9th week, the guild brought in 25 companies, and had us Apprentices sign up for 15 minute interviews with as many companies as we wanted and could schedule. This allowed me to get a lot of face-to-face interview experience, and it took pretty much all of the stress of job searching out of the equation. I mean, they literally put the hiring managers in front of you. It can't be any easier than that. From those short interviews, I had multiple full-length interviews with several companies I was interested in, and accepted a position at the end of week 11.

As of the last day of classes, we 87% of apprentices that chose to stay in the area have accepted positions, and I have no doubt that my out-of-state classmates will find positions quickly.

I don't have a single complaint. I've made friends for life, learned an incredible amount of material, and accepted a position making nearly triple my previous wages. They did everything they advertised, and I enjoyed every minute of it."

[afarrell]

> learn to program in my downtime

The hard part here is curation of resources and environment setup.

[jrumbut]

It's funny to hear that because I just typed "learn to code" into Google and the first page (ads included!) are all fine and mostly free resources, many requiring only a web browser to start.

Just 10 or 15 years ago the process was completely opaque, a lot of books in your local store had omissions or bugs that made them impossible to follow, it was a seriously frustrating process unless you stumbled into the right community, were a genius, or had lots of guidance.

[trowawee]

There're enough options that it can be overwhelming. It's hard to see the place to start, because if you're completely outside the bubble, it's hard to even know what the options are, or why you'd pick one of them. Say you type "learn to code" into Google. You go to Codeacademy, because it's the first option and maybe you've heard of it. You log in, then you go the courses page. You don't want to drop $20 on the personalized plan right away, so you skip that; you don't know what "web development" means, or how it's different from anything else, so you skip the web dev stuff. You go down to the language section - that's a good, basic start, right? - and you see six boxes:

HTML & CSS: Learn how to create websites by structuring and styling your pages with HTML and CSS.

JavaScript: Learn the fundamentals of JavaScript, the programming language of the Web.

jQuery: Learn how to make your websites interactive and create animations by using jQuery.

PHP: Learn to program in PHP, a widespread language that powers sites like Facebook.

Python: Learn to program in Python, a powerful language used by sites like YouTube and Dropbox.

Ruby: Learn to program in Ruby, a flexible language used to create sites like Codecademy.

Apparently you can use...all of these things to build websites? And they're all languages? The goals section is better, because those are concrete things that make some of these choices for you, but your rookie who just wants to learn some code and maybe see if they like this is already being asked to make a bunch of choices with relatively little data. And when they start researching, they're going to find a bunch of sites that say PHP sucks, a bunch that say the criticism of PHP is overrated, a bunch that say Ruby is the best beginner language, a bunch that say Ruby is terrible, and a bunch of math nerds (<3 u, python). Plus, they're going to stumble into the CF that is the wide world of JavaScript.

None of this makes it impossible, but choice paralysis is a real issue, and I know a fair number of people who want to get started coding, but can't figure out where to get a handhold. That's one of the benefits of bootcamps - they make some of the initial choices for you, so you can get started learning the building blocks.

Weirdly, I think that well-written books (huge caveat) might be better, because they do something similar: lock you in a path and then tell you to put your nose to the grindstone and get to work.

[afarrell]

> choice paralysis

Yes. This is what I'm really getting at.

That, and for environment setup, some choices will genuinely send you down a rabbit hole of wrestling with with unfamiliar tools.

[Terr_]

Right. Take carpentry as an analogy: If you decide to learn how to build anything big, you need to set up an area where you can safely make a little bit of a mess and you may also need to acquire arrange some tools.

If you're not ready for that, then practice with some "birdhouse"-like projects.