[nakedrobot2]

This is like Stalin vs. Hitler

London: gloomy, tremendously overcrowded, stressed people everywhere, binge drinking until 11pm and then you're out of luck, spineless european investors, and a cost of doing business so high due to high rents and expenses, that the Startup scene is really a non-starter.

SF: The frat boys have won, the nerds are a long-gone memory, the city is eating itself with brogrammers while america's homeless population of unfortunate veterans and mentally ill, pile up on the streets, looking in on the privileged class. The gridlocked system prevents even basic infrastructure enjoyed by most other civilized part of the world to exist (trains, housing, etc.)

Hitler vs. Stalin.

Live somewhere else. It is a wonderful world out there.

Try Prague for example. Safe, easy, cheap, full of great tech talent. Just to give one example.

[stcredzero]

> SF: The frat boys have won, the nerds are a long-gone memory, the city is eating itself with brogrammers

Bravo! What we have in SF are the social dynamics of Mad Men with the supposed trappings of "geekdom." There's still bullying, it just doesn't happen in the locker room, and the pretexts have different texts.

[orthoganol]

The "Brogrammer" is nothing more than the "Other" that certain people in SF likes to project all their unhappiness into, because they are unable to think very critically about social issues in the city. Lazy thinking. I've met maybe 2, my entire 6 years living in SF as a programmer. CEOs, finance, sales, marketing is where the actual SF bros are. When someone complains about the "brogrammer epidemic" it's not unreasonable to claim they may have some issues of their own they are dealing with.

[stcredzero]

> The "Brogrammer" is nothing more than the "Other" that certain people in SF likes to project all their unhappiness into

The "Brogrammer" is largely fictional. (Though I really did work for "the original metro-sexual brogrammer" in Houston, but he was an anomaly!) However, the kind of disingenuous othering and aggression perpetrated by the fictional "brogrammer" is done by many in the tech community, just with different trappings. (Which makes such behavior harder to see for what it is. We are all conditioned to seeing that as "the good guys" striking a blow for something.) So you may read my comment like this: "The real brogrammer epidemic is programmers and tech workers in general succumbing to the effects of affluence and privilege." Also: "The real brogrammers look and sound nothing like brogrammers. They look and sound like us!"

[lgieron]

> Live somewhere else.

There is a catch though - for programmers, London is by far the best paying city in Europe (except maybe Swiss cities).

[onion2k]

In terms of gross salary, absolutely. In terms of net earnings after paying for the cost of living in London, probably not. I'm quite sure I could double or even triple my salary by moving to London, but my quality of life would very likely go down. For a start, where I live I can afford to buy a house. On a multiple of my income in London I don't think I could do that.

I see no value in earning more just to pass the money directly to my landlord.

[lmm]

Remember that your savings are measured in absolute terms. If outside London I'd earn x and spend 25% of it on housing and in London I earn 2x and spend 50% of it on housing, I'm still earning more non-housing money in London. And in the case of paying a mortgage then at the end of it all you sell the house, so the extra expenditure isn't "lost".

Quality of life comes down to personal preference. I'm not sure there's anywhere else I could live (at least without having to learn another language) and not feel any need to own or use a car, the pub theatre scene is probably the best in the world (likewise the museum collections), a huge range of musical performances, and it's the best place to find people for specialised hobbies (netrunner in my case, again literally the best place in the world for it in terms of the community size). Of course other places have their own selling points, but London has a lot going for it if you like that sort of thing.

[osullivj]

I lived in London for 12 years, and earned good money working in banking. I loved it for all the reasons you spelled out. But then the financial crisis happened, the banks started firing people, we got burgled three times in one year, and I got mugged at knifepoint. We moved out to the countryside where our kids could go to good state schools and found that they stopped having asthma attacks. I earn less money, but I'm much less stressed.

[lmm]

It's worth saying that despite what one hears in the media, both burglary and knife crime are continuously falling.

But sure. I think age, kids and general lifestyle make a lot of difference; for a lot of people London delivers more of what you want when you're young, but the countryside is better as you grow older and your priorities change.

[lgieron]

A lot of devs in London are here to amass as much money as they can, so that they can retire early or at least move to a cheaper location later in life. While doing so, they are fine with living in substandard conditions (such as flatsharing in their thirties).

[m_t]

This is right. As a game programmer, I would be far better off in Edinburgh money wise.

Climate wise, not so sure.

[pjc50]

Pay needs to be compared not at nominal exchange rates but at purchasing-power-parity, including real estate.

[josephmx]

And ofcourse job availability should be a factor, there are less dev jobs in (eg) Leeds than there are in London

[nakedrobot2]

Oh God Please - in terms of cost of living and quality of life, your mileage may vary, but for many people, you can't do any worse.

[lgieron]

In my last job, my whole team was, with the exception of one Englishman, literally people who moved from all over the world (Europe, the Americas, Asia and Africa) to London. They were all quite happy with it, too.

[wdmeldon]

I think one of the biggest issues with, say Prague as you suggested, is the language barrier. Sure 50+% of people speak English, but that's still a huge transition for someone who has only ever lived in an English speaking country.